Nippin Anand 00:00
So yeah, welcome to Embracing Differences with me, Nippin Anand, and I’m joined by Maithrai Malik, who I met last year when we were inburg and doing a conference on on humanistic ethics. And Maithrai, I met you there, and would you like to say a few words about yourself, and then I think you have some very exciting things to share. Yes, yes.

Maitrayee Mullick 00:24
Hopefully, so as you mentioned, my name is Moitrai, and I come from India, and I am a postdoctoral candidate at this point in Alberg University. I am working with strategic AI and logistics, which is mostly looking into how narratives and AI all fall into place, and how technology is being adopted in the system. Also, with regard to my background, I am a Bengali, and I have very much interests in mythology, because of which we started this conversation. So, yeah, I hope we have a fruitful conversation there.

Nippin Anand 01:07
So, so for the for the listeners who who don’t know, what is the connection between being a Bengali and and the connection with mythology?

Maitrayee Mullick 01:17
Okay, so we have this thing of culture ingrained in us, like particular cultural traits that everybody link with Bengalis, like they read a lot, they sing, they paint, and not contrary to what people say, I do all of them. So, with respect to that, I have always been interested in art and literature, and when literature comes to mind, not particularly religious, religion-based, but mythology is something that I have always been interested in, and I also have quite a lot of reverence with regard to Indian religion and the systems that have been established, but I also always had interest into looking into details and questioning things that have been set, as our epics have been set in certain ways, and there are a lot of things that always were like questions in my head. So that is something that builds the aspect of literature and connections with being a Bengali and the cultural perspective altogether. So yeah,

Nippin Anand 02:26
so wonderful and and and Moitrai, I got the pronunciation this time right, hopefully. But what is the connection between what is the difference between mythology and religion for for people who tend to mix between the two.

Maitrayee Mullick 02:43
So religion is something that is very much set in the society with particular norms and traditions and cultural practices, and I believe mythology is something that we believe that is true. But we also have some questions of is it true or is it not? So there is overlaps, I believe, in mythology. Like if if I consider the Hindu mythology and mostly like revolving around the epics. If you remember back in the days when I was very young, we used to have the Ramayana, which used to be broadcasted, and people were like there was pin drop silence across the streets, and everybody would be home and looking into these very intriguing but known things like the epics. the The very interesting thing is that everybody knows the story, but everybody re-watches whenever it is recasted and shown again and again through different generations, so that’s that’s that’s something which I feel is important because when mythology comes into mind, we always believe these are mythologies. But there is also research that tries to find out that yes, there are traces that these were true, and there comes an like like the cross sections where religion meets mythology and facts, and a lot of confusion and and systems that are already set in the society. So from there, I believe you should always question the systems because with questioning, you will have a better understanding of what you believe in and what is your own perspective, particularly.

Nippin Anand 04:29
Yeah, such a wise thing to start with. Because in the scientific world, we are so busy debunking and demystifying mythology, but a myth is not something to be debunked and demystified. It is something to be to be considered as as a part of the puzzle or part of the truth. It’s not always true, and it’s not totally untrue. And that you know that that incomplete nature of the truth creates such a beautiful ground for. Curiosity, open-mindedness, or the that there’s something that I don’t understand, and I need to to to to. It’s the unstable nature of truth, I think, which makes it so fascinating, right? Yeah. So, so on that note, I think you have some some very good thoughts on feminism and and and particularly linked with the Indian mythology, where would you like to start, Mutrei?

Maitrayee Mullick 05:27
I would like to start at the point of why feminism is an angle that is necessary at this point, because given the fact that where the world is heading, I believe every man and women both should be looking into what feminism is, and given that there is a lot of nuanced misunderstandings with regard to what feminism is, I believe if we try to project it with what we know, with our epics, it will be giving a little more clarity with regard to what feminism is, and given the fact that there there is a very interesting book called The Invisible Yeah Invisible Women, which is written by Caroline Pearer, if I’m pronouncing her name correctly, where she is showing the aspect of data gaps, where there are a lot of things that are happening, and the systems that are there, which are mostly men-centric and patriarchal, and a set of system that is not very relevant for women. For example, if if we can take some very simple examples, if you go to an office, you will always find the women feeling more chilly than the men because the temperatures that are set in offices are mostly regulated according to the body temperatures of meals, and that’s that’s something very basic, right? So from there, I believe that we need to debunk what is feminism. It is mostly about equality and opportunities, and nothing broad and very radical about it. So from there, I think that there is a need to connect mythology, the epics that we have, because that’s something we know, right? And feminism is something that people are confused with regard to. And I think if we link it with something that we know, it’s easier to grasp the problem.

Nippin Anand 07:28
So true. Yes. Let’s let’s begin with that then. Please please help us unpack this this this puzzle.

Maitrayee Mullick 07:35
Okay. So as we started, I was thinking about the fact of what a narrative is and what a system is, so if you believe that, particularly given the Indian society and our structures, we have always revered our epics, right? The the Mahabharata and the Ramayana being the primary of the two, and I believe there has been a lot of understandings which are not very clear for everybody. We know that there are aspects of lack of clarity, given the fact that we put these positions of these characters into positions of gods and goddesses. But we also need to understand that this is like a structure for the society to follow. Like it’s like a rule book, right? Like people refer to it, and similarly, like we we read the Gita, which is also derived from the Mahabharata. It’s like something that we use for our daily lives, for our clarity, for our mindset altogether. So from there, I believe that the role of feminism within the epics lies in the characters of Sita, primarily from Ramayana. Then there is the character of Draupadi from Mahabharata. Primarily, those are the two. And in the feministic literature, I am not a feminist feministic scholar per se. But out of my sheer interest and curiosity, I have been reading a few books for the past few months. And I don’t know why I have this. I have developed this passion for these particular books, so I started reading and following up more with these books. So there are three books that I would like to bring in over here. The first is by someone called Lalita Kumari, whose pen name is Volga, and the book is basically called Liberation of Sita. It is a Telugu book which has been translated, and I have nothing. I have not read any book that could so clearly explain our questions as women when we see Mahabharata and Ramayana, because even as a child, I. When I used to see the the banishing of Sita into the forest out of no crime of her own, I always had this question: that what did she do to deserve this? Because she’s not at fault, and whom is the society trying to please, and what is the broad narrative that is being said over here? Then there is the incidence of Draupadis Chirharan, which you know in the Mahabharata that she was put at stake by her husband. Considering, I firstly don’t understand who had the authority to consider that women, a woman is the wife’s property, and then can be put at stake, and then can be lost, and then there is no system that protects her sense of agency and her security and safety. So these are certain questions I think should mostly men and women both should be questioning and looking into, because I believe that given religion and and our epics are something that broadly shape how our society looks into things, because these are set rules that come into being. I think these become very important things into look to look into. What do you think of this?

Nippin Anand 11:25
Well, thank you for for asking. I think there’s this. Let’s. I just because a lot of readers don’t come from from India or listeners don’t come from India. I just like to say a couple of things. That one is that Ramayana and Mahabharata, they are two grand epics of the Indian culture, of the Indian civilization, of the Indian religion, of the Indian belief system, and they are so embedded in everything that we do. And the the beauty of of of the two is, in fact, you know, in in in the Indian culture, we celebrate paradox, and we have no interest in synthesizing between the two opposites. So we are quite comfortable that the two opposites can go into complete different directions. the The idea is not to like the Hegelian concept of synthesizing between the two and one wins over the other. So the whole idea of a conversation is not to win, but to broaden broaden your perspective. That Mothra is truth and my truth will make a bigger truth. Whereas in the Western world, the idea is that my truth wins over your truth, or your my truth is better than your truth, and I think we already have a problem there. But coming back to so that the reason why I find this so fascinating is that on the one hand, and you have Mahabharata, which is a grand epic of of if you like of rule defiance. You know that it’s not about the rules; it’s about defying all the rules. Lord Krishna in Mahabharata is all about defying the rules, whereas if you move into Ramayana, it’s all about following the rules. It’s all about rule compliance, right? So we have two big grand narratives here within the Hindu culture or religion, and they are they’re giving us two very different stories of and how do you reconcile between the two? You don’t you you you think for yourself when you’re faced with a moral dilemma whether this is about complying with the rules or it’s about defying the rules and but that agency is left to you to decide. Now we will not go into that because that’s not what the podcast is about. But since you mentioned these two epics, the whole idea is to internalize morality within people rather than controlling people from the outside, which is what we do usually in in this part of the world, right? Now, in that sense, there are two big characters, feminist characters, in in one in Ramayana and one in Mahabharata. In Ramayana, we have the Sita, and then in Mahabharata we have the Draupadi, and I think that’s that’s where you’re coming from to say that given their their their their very strong archetype as women, what what how do they how do they inform the broader narrative the way we see them because you know our idea of feminism or how life should be lived as a woman, or our relationship with women as men, is a lot of it is influenced by these two grand epics, and I think it’s it’s important to to start from there and say how these characters have been personified, or or what’s the archetype of Sita and and and Droppadi. Would that be fair? You think? Yeah.

Maitrayee Mullick 14:40
Yes, I believe so because the the primary thing, as you mentioned, I think is our own interpretation, and that should not be done by somebody else. And when there is a very strong belief system within the society, I believe that this interpretation is something that is like it’s like. A platter that is already made and is passed down through generations, and very less number of people, I believe, are questioning this. And and it’s always through a change in the lens. If you if you try to see from a different perspective, that you will be finding that these women I am speaking about are not just women who were like a submissive wife or who were who the victims, because mostly when when even myself when I have been seeing these epics in visuals maybe in shows that have been telecasted and broadcasted, we see it from the perspective that these were victims, but truly to look into the more the intricate nuances that are there. I don’t believe that they were victims. They were setting rather different narratives of how women should be empowered facing certain situations, and where they should have a tribe of their own, where they understand what is important and how they should not be like at the at the mercy of the patriarchal system to shape their agencies broadly. And from there, I would like to also mention that these are like the primary characters, right? But there were many other female characters within the Ramayana and the Mahabharata who also shaped the direction of these narratives. Like, if I can give a few more examples from Volga’s book, *The Liberation of Sita* what she tries to say is, from the time that Sita had been in in the forests, right? When Rama, Ram, and Sita were out in the forests and they were in their exile. So at that point, there were some meetings that they had, and they meet. These meetings were with Ahalya, one character, and then there was other instances where she meets Renuka. So these are some of the characters which were like the wives of famous pages in Indian mythology who appear within the context of the Ramayana when Ram and Sikh and Lakshman were in exile for 14 years as well. So these inter these interactions that have happened with them also show that these other women, that is Ahalya and Renuka, they were also at the mercy of the patriarchal system, where one was turned into stone because of no fault of her own, which is I’m talking about Ahalya. To just give a short context of what is the story, so Ahalya was the wife of a famous sage, and she was broadly enticed by Indra, who had become the sage and mostly had appealed to her, and they spent together some time together, and this was completely out of a misunderstanding that this was his her husband, but the fact that she was turned into stone, I don’t find a logic behind that because it was not her fault, to be honest. So that is something that a narrative has to be drawn from there, and her interaction with Sita is something that she’s trying to explain to Sita that this is how the system is, and you have to find your own voice. You cannot be silent and just accept everything. So Ahalia’s revolt was in the form of silence because when she was turned back into a human, she was. She has had not spoken, so her revolt was through silence. So when we look into the aspect of Sita, when she actually did not go back to the kingdom after Rama came again, after banishing her, so there is a lot of plot twists in the story, but coming to the end. After banishing without a reason, she was recalled back with her two sons. She decided not to go back. Thinking, rethinking about it. When I was a child, I was very, very, I don’t know, very unclear as to why didn’t she go back? She was for for two instances. Sita had to give the Agni Pariksha. Was asked to give the Agni Pariksha for the first time she did.

Maitrayee Mullick 19:32
She she broadly agreed to the fact that her her love towards her husband was the primary thing, and her own sense of self was a secondary concept at that point to prove it for the husband and the family. When she was again asked to give an Agni Padiksha to come back to the system, she did not accept that. And as a woman at my age, now I understand that. That is a a thing of dignity that she chose, not going back and giving trials for faults that she has not committed. So this is very important to see that, given that these are epics and these are stories that every household in India knows, there also has to be the fact that they understand that you have to look into the nuances of these characters. You should not be looking into the fact of the institutional security that is tried to be upholded and the ethics that are missing, the ethics of the self self security that Sita is trying to build, and the main the main statement that she provides, the narrative that she provides is that I can go back to my children and my husband, but if I do, most of the women in the coming times will be judged in the same way. So it’s like a narrative that she sets, but I believe it goes missing to some extent, and it needs to be retold with time. So yeah, absolutely, that’s such

Nippin Anand 21:08
a wonderful thing. And you’re absolutely right, Moitri. the The power of a myth lies in where it gains its energy and how it gives meaning to people, because we are creators of belief, and you could watch that whole Ramayana and only pick up things that that suit your motives and exactly,

Maitrayee Mullick 21:28
exactly. That’s that’s what I have seen everywhere. That everybody chooses and picks the things that suits their agenda. Even I can say that I am doing the same. I am suiting my agenda with regard from the feministic angle, and someone who will be looking at it from an angle of politics, they will be considering that this is the rule for the institutional sense of self. They are protecting the institutional ontological security. So Rama is actually protecting the state as an institutional subject, but in that case, he tend he tends to ignore the aspect of the family, which is a fact. And if we are trying to look at it from a from an angle that this is how society should work, then there is a problem. But if we understand that there are binaries to it, then it’s it’s worth reading these epics.

Nippin Anand 22:24
What a what a wonderful thing! Yes, absolutely. And you know the the question to ask when you when you are looking at a narrative or a myth is that who is made powerful and who is made powerless in the myth. And I think people are not discerning in that sense. They, I would say, even women are not discerning in that sense. They would read the narrative exactly in the way that suits the agenda of the broader society. So to to be able to think critically and question where the power lies and where the powerless lies, I think that’s where the the the power of critical thinking lies, and that’s what you are trying to bring. I only one one example comes to mind, and this would be this would this would make a lot of sense to people who are familiar with this narrative, which which is the Nirbhaya case that happened in India many years ago, and there was this there was this person who who was accused of gang rape or or no not gang rape sorry he he raped a minor and and it was it was a horrible horrible thing that happened that shook the country and then there was a British journalist actually she she managed to to go into the prison where this person was was was jailed and later hanged, and she happened to interview him. And the thing that she said was very, very interesting. And when she asked him, you know, why did you do such a heinous crime? And he said that you can’t clap with just one hand. You need at least two hands. And a girl, a woman who, who dares to step out at night and and go watch a late night movie. She deserves this. She deserves being raped, and I thought that was that was such a powerful metaphor of how you allocate blame to to the to the powerless, right? So even today there are you know, many educated families, not not just in India, across the world, who believe in this narrative, right? So I think who believe that women are less than men, and I think we need to question these things. Yes, it is

Maitrayee Mullick 24:35
a very important thing that you mentioned, Nippin, because if if you bring this angle to maybe the Mahabharata, I can I can give the example of this show that given the name of Mahabharata, there was this show that happened and on our Indian television, and there was an absent. Exactly at this thing, exactly at this time, as the the case that you mentioned, all of that happened together. So within this show, there was the character of Krishna who tried to bring in a simile, an analogy of this case and the situation that happened to Draupadi, and the fact that the entire system is at fault is what should be considered. It’s not just those people who are involved in the crime. It is the system because it cannot be that there is a single person who is doing something and there is no link to it. There is always an influence. There is always some sort of societal influence, familial influence, and and this goes to the root of the thinking that there is divide in the society at a very basic level, and we still uphold that, and that’s the funniest thing that that God has created creatures which should like live together and have a very and build a society that works together and towards development, but we are so in we are so busy fighting each other that we don’t know what the society is going into, and and and and at this point itself, I believe that such statements of inhumanity can be said by people who have, I think, themselves they do not have developed their own sense of agency to understand what they are doing, and to consider that this and the aspect of Mahabharata is something that can be compared, particularly the Chirharan incident of Draupadi, and that is one one scene that is always portrayed in like television and series that try to replicate the the epic. If they always show her as the victim, but the victim who is an enraged victim after the scenario, so so she shifts the narrative into a curse that all of you will be actually dying in a war which actually predicted happens. So if you read in detail about the Mahabharata, given the fact that this incident happened to the Rapadi, she asks to Krishna that why why me why did this happen to me and the the answer that she received was you are the change you are the person who is bringing this change and because of this incident that happened to you. Will this huge war, this this magnanimous war, will happen, and the world order will be changing? So it is framed in such a way that this kind of an incident was a precursor to change. But at present, we don’t see that, right? Because these incidences don’t bring any change. There is there is uprisings that happen. People are enraged. Women, we as women, are extremely enraged. But after a time, we consider the fact that it’s best to think that you should protect yourself and your other female friends in whatever way you can, because we have come to the conclusion that the society might not change in our lifetime. Hopefully, from the time our daughters and their daughters are are in a society, it should be better. But we don’t see that any change will be happening. So there is always narrative angles that you can find through things that have been told and what is happening?

Nippin Anand 28:42
What a fascinating thing! Because as you mentioned, you know that through through you, Draupadi, through this horrible thing that has happened to you, will come a transformation in the society, and this is no different from the ritual of scapegoating, where the Greeks used to call it the pharmakos, that you are the the the the cause of the suffering and you are the cure of the suffering. So hence the word pharmacos, which is pharmacy. So which is very similar to what you said. So through your in in your sacrifice lies the redemption and the order of the society. So it’s through your sacrifice that we can maintain certainty and order. So how interesting that we have taken that certainty and order completely and certainty and order in a good sense. In in in but certainty and order in this sense means preserving the status quo. So we are back again after that woman is sacrificed or raped or whatever, we are back again to where we were. Nothing has really changed. And if you think about it, every accident investigation goes exactly in the same way. We we sacrifice people, we blame them, we curse them, we throw them away in the prison or away from the company. We go back to doing exactly what we have always done. So the political order, the change in political order takes sometimes takes is beyond imagination, and I think that’s where the the because the myth is so powerful. Once you start to see a woman in a particular way or anyone for that part, it’s very hard to unsee it. Very very hard. Very few people actually will question it or go against it, and it’s not easy for them.

Maitrayee Mullick 30:30
Well, you you are very correct in this by saying that there is this kind of myth, and also I I would like to add to that that this is like there is this technicality that is always there. It’s like the chiruran was like a courtroom torture, right? So there is this technicality and the legalities of something called dharma that were being preached by most of the elders at the sabha who were saying that they were they were watching, right? They was they were standing there and they were watching the disrobement of this their kulvadru, which is like enraging to an extent, but the fact that the technicality is given power over the kind of human catastrophe that was happening, which is something as you were mentioning that in safety protocols it’s mostly the technicality that is always there, right? The safety protocol has inherently been looking into the aspects of technicalities, which are always overriding the fact that there should be aspects of looking into the humanity, looking into the catastrophe that’s happening, looking into who needs the help, right? So there is always this this trap, like a legalistic trap that is created, and I don’t know how we can like move beyond that. Of course, we should have more conversations that look into these elements, but they should also result into something, and that should not be just like a rule book again, and not to be followed in the long term. Yes,

Nippin Anand 32:06
and and and part of the problem goes back to where we started, which is that the way we understand a myth, people see myth as a truth. They and they are so busy debunking that truth, demystifying that truth, and the only tools you have in hand is to get into facts and evidences, and get busy with petty details and come up with a solution to those petty details, which comes through technology fixes, through protocols, through through processes and whatnot. But we don’t have the ability to set sit outside of it and look at it not as a technical problem, but as a holistic problem, as a problem of who is Sita, you know who is Drapadi, what who what what does that even mean? Who is this person involved in the accident, and and how how in the name of fixing things technically, we are actually making things worse because it actually creates a very false sense of illusion that through that process, through that technology, through that control, we will fix and we will move on. But the problem still remains because the archetype hasn’t hasn’t changed. The ritual has hasn’t changed at all. There’s no transformation after that scapegoating. We go back to what we have always done, and I think therein lies a big problem. And the other thing is that I think a lot of education in this space is very technical. Also, whether it’s so a lot of people who who look at this are technocrats, and they don’t-they lack the ability to look at it as a myth. So, if we if we go back to what a myth is, if you start looking at myth as as the opposite of truth, we have already lost the battle. But I think what we are suggesting is in this in this in this conversation is that you need to look at a myth as a way of communicating truth, as a way of representing reality, but there could be other representations of the same reality. So, if you look at Sita in another way, and another way, and another way, you might come to the conclusion that your understanding of Sita is is so so limited. So, in a way, you know, this the whole idea of myth opens up possibilities to look at things differently, but we are technical. We don’t want to look at things differently. We either want to prove it right or wrong, and that’s where we lose it.

Maitrayee Mullick 34:28
It’s very true. The fact that the need or the reality at present, we try to overlook that and focus on what is something called the abstract order. We’re always always focusing on something that is abstract, and then like missing what’s real, right? Because at at this point, I believe that there is so much happening in the world going beyond feminism as well. You you should always see that there is a human at the. End of the spectrum, and and they also have their own sets of opinions, perspectives, and just like you, you and me both are at two different spectrums. Both have perspectives, but because we are questioning, we are coming into an understanding, right? Because we know that there is a deliberation is that is necessary. So until the point that we come to this, that we acknowledge that there is a problem and the system can change, I don’t know. Otherwise, there won’t be any change that we do see because if there is a very rigid system, you have to understand that it is bound to fall after a time, similar to how world orders change. There is there is this peak of like catastrophe, and then they understand that there is a need to change, and that change is to happen when we when we pinpoint where the problem lies, and therefore questioning and deliberation becomes very essential and not just focusing on what the abstract order of the system is and becoming more like looking into more into the human connection, not overriding that aspect.

Nippin Anand 36:13
So true, and you know the whole idea of the abstract order, as you said maybe a few times now, is a quest for control. That I need to be, I need to be in control of this narrative. So we compress the whole narrative into something into very simple, simplified. So and this is what Greeks were very, very good at, or the Hollywood narrative is very, very good at, which is going from A to B, you know, from chaos to order. If you go from chaos to order, and you can create success. That’s a very abstract order, you know. That’s a very abstract order. That and and all storytelling all is is framed that way. Towards the end, it’s either a happy ending or it’s a sad ending. But it’s a very linear structure, and I think this is a quest for control. But when you look at it as a myth. Myth. You cannot control a myth. It’s just silly to even think about it. But what you can do is you can you can look at a myth from from different perspectives and and widen your horizons. And I think the kind of world that we live in today, where leaders and managers and and so on need to have need to have when when they come out of of of whether it’s an incident an accident doesn’t matter. It’s any narrative. They come out of it by thinking about possibilities. What are what possibilities do we have in order to to tackle this narrative? When and myth gives you that unique position that once you leave the room, you are richer in your narrative. You’re richer in your possibilities, and that’s what makes you a good risk manager, isn’t

Maitrayee Mullick 37:48
it? I believe, yeah, you have hit the correct note over here, because there is always a necessity to look into details and not just follow things very linearly, as you mentioned. Like in in movies, you start from there is a sad note to the story. This person is very sad, and then there is so much of in the middle. There is so much of fluff, and then there is a happy ending. But you never follow that. What happens after the happy ending? Are they happy? So that that you have to look into the fact that it’s not always a linear thing. Like even in like Bollywood movies, there is this hero and the heroine who gets married, and there is a happily ever after. Not just in most of genres of movies, right? If you look into rom coms, but at this point, when currently our generation is very ingrained into looking into what is a female perspective and what is a male perspective. And now, when we rewatch those movies, being grown-ups, we are like, no, these these two will not like if they are in a lifetime, they will not be together because this is like a chaos. This is like a myth, right? The kind of things that we have grown up with is it’s it’s again like a narrative that has been set, right, through movies, through music, which is far from reality, I believe. And we have to look into again the fact that what is real and reality is never linear. It’s it’s very dynamic, and we have to acknowledge that dynamic nature.

Nippin Anand 39:26
And and and it’s all in the living. It’s it’s it’s it’s not static. It doesn’t end. It’s as you said. It’s not a happy ending or a sad ending. It’s in the living.

Maitrayee Mullick 39:36
Yeah.

Nippin Anand 39:36
You you carry this this this messiness with you as long as you live, there is no escape to it, and I think this is where also the power of the myth is that you you embody myths, you live myths, and they they never end. I tend to think that our myths, for example, the the Hindu myth and the Eastern myths, are more circular in nature. They’re not linear. It’s not. Going from A to B, it’s always circular. We follow the natural cycles.

Speaker 1 40:04
Yeah,

Nippin Anand 40:04
you know, we had a beautiful story called Bikram and Betal. If you have heard, it was always circular. Yeah, always circular. You know, so I think, and and in some ways, if you think about it, Deeming proposed the idea of plan, do, check, act, and it was always circular in management systems, but we have never we have never taken it in that spirit because the moment we put a corrective action to to an event, that’s it. Everyone goes to sleep from there, and then nobody questions what happens after that. So, but but great way to to have this. We’re having a conversation about safety on the one side, or risk on the one side, and the mythology. But what a beautiful conversation! But is there anything you would like to say in closing, Maitre?

Maitrayee Mullick 40:50
What I would like to say is that there is always this the aspect of myths within systems, and when we look into the element of ethics, it’s something very very important. When we look at systems and the broad thing about narratives is they kind of set the system and how it is functioning. Just like a society, just like any any particular organization, they have this system that is followed, and there are guidelines of ethics, but it should not just be guidelines. It should be something that is tested and re-verified if it is applicable to the times that we live in, or if it needs to upgrade with time and broadly upgrade with the changes that is happening. So that is what I would like to say: that a system and its narrative and the myths that are within them should always be guided with the ethics that is necessary, and not just feministic ethics. More humanistic, it should be human, right? And women are humans; it’s not a separate section, so you have to look into all the elements of that.

Nippin Anand 42:05
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, Matre, what I’m thinking, we should do one more podcast after this on dharma, because I think that would that would tie the loose ends really well to say how dharma focuses on the the human and the humanistic side of things, and it addresses some of those issues that material ethics, for example, utilitarianism or deontology or or pragmatism or behaviorism. All these ethics belong to a school of thought which is material ethics, you know. But here we have dharma, and what can we learn from dharma when it comes to ethics and how we deal, or we we deal with these moral dilemmas and people all the time. Let’s let’s book another time and do a podcast on dharma, and that would that would bring that would tie these these things wonderfully well. Yes, great. Well, thank you, thank you for for for joining me and.