Nippin Anand 0:02
Welcome to embracing differences with me. Nippin Anand, I have with me a new friend and the guest of this podcast. Just to give you some background, we spoke about just about the start of this week, and we recorded a nice podcast, but at the end, we realized that we missed out some very important things in that podcast, which I believe would make it so much more enriching. And we thought it would be nice to do a little podcast, and then we could probably release that one at another time. So Vikram, I think it’d be great to hear about you from you, rather than me introducing you. Yeah.

Bikram Bhatia 0:48
Thank you, Nippin, first of all for inviting me to this podcast. It’s my honor and privilege to be part of this podcast and having a conversation with you. My name is Bikram. I currently work at HVL, which is a university in Norway. It’s called Western Norway University for Applied Sciences. I’ve been here for the last three months. Prior working here, I was working with the world Maritime University. I did my research there at wmu. And prior to that, I was working on ships. I worked for over 15 years, and I’ve mainly worked on oil chemical tankers trading worldwide routes.

Nippin Anand 1:30
Great, Bikram, and as we, as we discussed, let’s make it a conversation between two seafarers at about 11 o’clock in the morning sitting in a cafe and having a conversation. So tell me about yourself, Vikram, little bit more, and how you came to this, this, this area of research, or whatever you want to share. Yes, right.

Bikram Bhatia 1:50
So it all began, you know, when I was growing up. So I come from a very humble background. You know, I was living in Mumbai. My dad, he moved from Punjab to Mumbai to have a better living. And so I was born in Mumbai. I was I was raised up there. I did my schooling. And during those period, you know, there was always the expectation from my dad to get into Merchant Navy, because, because he, he perceived this industry as well paying. And even during our conversation, used to say that you just get better pay and there’s very little work on board the vessel, which was exactly not the case when I went on board for the first time, I saw that the reality was completely different, what I was told. So I worked on the ship, you know, and obviously the things were pretty tough on board. They were long working hours, and there were a lot of other other seafaring issues, what we see currently with the current seafarers. So so that is what led me to into into research world, where I wanted to investigate more, if I was the only one facing this issue, or if it’s a global phenomena, and through my research time at the WM, I found that the issue I was facing was basically an issue which is happening on a larger scale, on a widespread scale, with other seafarers. And this is what I plan to do while at HVL, is to continue working into those areas and then see what how we can make this industry much more better.

Nippin Anand 3:25
It’s interesting, Vikram, that the what I find very powerful in your story is the misalignment between the expectations and the reality. That here’s a dad showing his son a picture of what you call Merchant Navy, which is global shipping, that it’s it’s a lot of fun and very little work. And here we have a son, you know, many decades later, sitting down and thinking about the question of work and work hours and how that corresponds with good living. And I’ll share my own story with you. Bikram, I just like you. Come from a very humble background. And my first ship, I was going away for 18 months, and my mother only came to know on the day before I packed my bags, and she walked into my room, it was hardly a room, and she came to me, and she said, beta, as a son, don’t come back home before finishing your tenure. Otherwise you will bring a lot of shame to the family. It was in a working class family, as we call it here in the UK, and she was, you know, there was a paradox there, but because she broke down when she came to know that I’m leaving for 18 months. It’s a very, very long time for a mum, you know, and at the same time, she is admonishing me not to come back home. And it must be when I look back at it, of course, she passed away two years ago, and it was very hard on me, but when I look back at it, what a paradox This woman must be living. On the one hand, the shame of the society. And on the other hand, you have this urge for your son to finish his tenure and not bring shame to the family. So I think you’re constantly juggling between two worlds and and here I listened to you, and it made so much sense. Vikram, is there more you want to say about that? Yeah, I

Bikram Bhatia 5:22
think I shared the same story as well as you just mentioned Nippin, because even at times on board the vessel, when I was in my earlier days, I felt that probably I can quit, but I couldn’t do that. I used to cry in my cabin. I couldn’t go back and say to my dad, I can’t do it so, because there was always the expectation from from the family, you know, that I would keep up to their promises of, you know, getting more money at home, and then continue working in this industry. And even after I became master, when I was getting into the research world, my dad was not really happy, because he was thinking that he has left a good career which pays well, and now in his in this research world, he doesn’t get well paid. So, so even now, there’s expectation from my family, you know, for me to go back on board and start earning, earning, earning the same which I was doing earlier.

Nippin Anand 6:18
Wow, this is so powerful. I remember being at the University of Nottingham Bikram, and a very proud moment that I was working as a research fellow there. And I used to walk every day home, about two kilometers walk from bulletin to the university. And I remember one day coming back home and I was on a very happy mood, and I called my mom and a dad and said, you know, shared some of my happiness about, you know, how I have longed for this intellectual kind of lifestyle, and I’m so I’m so happy with it. And my dad said that, you know, all that is fine, but how much are you getting paid? And and that was a moment of, I it was very depressing moment, Vikram, very depressing. And I’m, I still think about it to say how much of life is lived, you know, buried under somebody else’s expectations. And to add to all this, you know, the part of world where we come from, probably people are listening to us, they would still think that we are selfish, because a lot of life is actually owed to parents, and there’s nothing wrong with it. It’s just, I do feel there is an element of liberation here when you talk about these things,

Bikram Bhatia 7:34
yeah, yeah. I totally agree on that. Nippinna, but I believe you know for myself, I have done my part as a family member, and this is the time where I could pursue my own interest. So So I felt, you know, the money we had, we, I think we I’m able to provide a good financial stability to my family, and I think I’ve done my part because that was their expectation. Now I feel that I can pursue my own goals and interests and whatever I want to pursue in my life. And this is what currently I’m doing.

Nippin Anand 8:08
I look at you and I look at myself 10 years ago, 2000 maybe more. 2005 is when I started my my research journey. And there are so many parallels, Vikram. So many parallel I think we make a connection instantly. There Vikram. Also, when we last spoke you, you talked about one particular thing that still stays on my mind, which is your your first birthday on the ship. Do you want to talk about that? I thought it was very powerful.

Bikram Bhatia 8:39
Yeah, yes. Nippin, yeah. So, so I joined my first vessel, and it was few days prior to my birthday. And so once I joined the vessel, I got so busy with the ship operation. So we were supposed to load, I was in a chemical tanker. So we were supposed to load methanol, which is a gold standard cargo and chemical tankers, which means it needs a very high standard of cleaning, which obviously means there has to be more work from the ship seafarers, you know, to get that standard. So, so I got so busy with ships, work with the ship, Operation six on, six off, I lost, you know, the control of the time. I couldn’t know what time was. I was, you know, on board the vessel. And during that process, I missed my birthday, which was on the 26th January, and it was on the 27th morning. Second mate from the bridge, he called me on the walkie talkie, saying, Vikram, do you remember what date is today? I said, I don’t remember. And he said, It’s 27th January, and you missed your birthday. And then just to celebrate my birthday, he called me on the bridge and we made pale Puri and had had it together. So we have, because of the ship operation, I was so busy, you know, with the work, uh. A six on six off. I never knew what was happening around, you know, what’s happening at home or, you know what’s so I was never involved in this. You know, outside the ship’s world, it was all ship, what I was being through, and that is the life I was living in,

Nippin Anand 10:19
yeah, and it’s interesting Bikram, because I don’t know about you, but you do write a log book every day when you’re when you’re on the ship. So when you wrote the date 26th January, it didn’t occur to you at all.

Bikram Bhatia 10:31
No, actually, I was, I was still not a bridge officer, so I was basically, it was my first ship, you know, first few days of my first ship. And I never went on the bridge before, you know, going to the second house and eating a Puri so and I was all working on the deck with hands. We used to have manual tank leading machines, where you have to pull up the tank leading machines from the tank and put it in the other tanks, and then keep on shifting these hoses. So there was a lot of manual work, which used to happen during those days on chemical tanker. So I was so busy with those manual work, I couldn’t do anything else. It was just working, eating and sleeping. That’s it.

Nippin Anand 11:13
So how did it feel when he wished you a happy, belated Happy Birthday? By the way, belated Happy Birthday, mine is on the 11th of February, so just passed also to both of us. But how did it feel when the second officer greeted you on the next day?

Bikram Bhatia 11:31
Yeah, thank you for wishing me a birthday. Nippin, yeah, I felt nice because I think he was the first one to to wish me a birthday because I couldn’t connect to my family as well, because they might be trying to get me, get in touch with me, but, I mean, obviously I was on a ship, so they couldn’t. So he was the first person to wish me a birthday, and was really happy and also surprised at the same time. How could I miss my birthday? And it happened with me for the first time in my life that I missed my birthday so and I was also happy that, you know, on ship, people think about people, and they have a lot of difficult times on board the vessel. I know this workload and lot of pressure on the ship, but it’s also about people. So the way second mate, you know, greeted me and celebrated my birthday. I was I was so touched by that gesture. And even, I believe, until today, it’s not the ship, it’s not the equipments which make the ship work. It’s the people, people like the second meet I had, and there were many other people in my life after that. So it’s people like those who make the ships run. And I think slowly by slowly, we see these kind of people are leaving the industry, which should be worrying for the industry now,

Nippin Anand 12:48
wow, this is can you say a little bit more about that? Yeah.

Bikram Bhatia 12:54
So, I mean, obviously, when I was growing up on a ship, I had a lot of officers who were caring about people. For example, I’ve told you about second mate. So it was not only that particular birthday, he took care of me doing my entire tuner as if I was his younger brother. And I had many of these officers during my life. I had a chief mate who used to see me as his as his kid, and he took care of me, although, although I need to work hard on the vessel, but he made sure that I was comfortable, you know, even if I was working hard, I was getting sleep or not. So they were very conscious about that, and they couldn’t do much beyond what they could have done, you know. So they tried to do their best in the given circumstances, but that was actually not good enough. So I had these kind of people on board the vessel who were taking care of other people like me in my situation. And we see through our research that these kind of people, because there’s lot of stress and workload on the ship, they feel that they need to move on and probably look somewhere else to their living

Nippin Anand 14:05
absolutely and I had a chief cook, a Sri Lankan chief cook who couldn’t who couldn’t see I stopped eating because I just couldn’t eat the food on the ship, the kind of food that was cooked. So he used to leave a bowl of fried rice for me every day on on what on the dinner table. And one day, the captain saw it, and he became very furious that, why are you cooking something special for the cadet? And he said, The cadet is not eating, and I have so much respect and time for for that person and many other people like you that have touched our life. It’s interesting that we don’t share these stories as much as we should. We seefarers are full of stories of kindness compassion, but also the opposite of it, which is bullying and so on. And we don’t talk about these things so much. But I want to go back to your research topic and ask you, you know, how do. This whole idea of researching the area that you research. How did it formulate over the period of time? How did you where did the penny drop that this is what you want to do?

Bikram Bhatia 15:12
I think the starting point would be when I went on board for the first time. Obviously, during that moment, I never thought of doing the research. But there was always the idea that why we have to work so much on the ship prior getting on the ship. Obviously, your, your, your daily schedule is, is, is, you know, it’s pretty fixed. It’s, you know, there’s, there’s a routine there. But when I went on board the vessel, it was chaotic. So it was the ship operation, which was depicting detecting the, you know, your routine, six on six or four and eight off and all that stuff. So, so and, and. And as a candidate, I went through, you know, those routines on the ship where I was not getting proper sleep, rest, and there was a lot of work. Even I remember, there was a case where I have to sleep in the pump room, hiding from my chief officer. And once this chief mate knew that I was sleeping there, he was furious with me. He couldn’t talk to me enough for a couple of days because he was angry on me. Why do I have to sleep on the pump room? And I said to him, I never had the courage to tell you this, that I need rest, so I have to hide from you to get rest. And the pump room was the best place because it also had a bunker tank, which was giving me that heat, so it was giving me a nice sleep there. Yeah, yeah. So, so, so as as time went by, you know, even when I was scared, I was thinking, probably, when I become a second mate or third mate or second mate, life would be, would be much better. I would have better working hours, and then mostly, but that never happened. As I went on with my rank, the working hours, the workload kept on increasing. But then I had a hope, and I became a master. I thought, okay, probably this is the moment where I can, you know, live, live a better life, and also provide better life to people who are working on on board the vessel with me. But even that never happened. There were a lot of things as a captain which you don’t have under your control. So so and even if you try to make an impact, your impact would be limited on that particular vessel and and I was sure, because during my seafaring career, I was talking to a lot of other friends and colleagues, and they had very similar problem. So I realized that this is something which is just not only my shoe, but it’s, it’s a common problem across across, at least in India. So so when I came to the world Maritime University, I was told that you need to do a master’s program, which involves doing a thesis. And that is where this idea clicked. Where, where, where I started looking for a supervisor who can help me with this topic of fatigue. And that is where I met Professor Rafael bomber, and he opened my eyes, you know, a bit wider, to look at this issue from this perspective. And then from then that point onwards, we started looking this issue from the perspective of falsification of records. And now from that point, from that point onwards, we are here where our research is being currently discussed widely across the industry, including in the IMO and the ILO.

Nippin Anand 18:19
And you have written extensively about that, I know, and I have read some of your work before we get into that, and we won’t take very long to discuss that. I’m just wondering listening to all your stories, Vikram, that as I listen to you, what I see through a common pattern that repeats through the story, which is through your ranks, right from being a cadet to an officer to a captain, you’re constantly fighting this expectation that your dad has had seeded right in the beginning, that it’s a good life and it’s a relaxed life, and it’s little work, and Here you are constantly kind of looking for that expectation in but reality does not offer anything close to that. And I, you know, I get the feeling that that must have been a very important thing in your life to to break from that in some way, or maybe find a shelter in research to say, How can I so maybe I don’t know. I mean, to what extent that would be even a topic to do you talk about it in the open Vikram, this thing,

Bikram Bhatia 19:34
not really the personal side of it, but you know, since I’m in the academia and where we are being told in the academia that your your discussion should be unbiased, so I don’t bring lot of my experiences during all this discussion. So I try to move my discussion from my own experience, you know, to the research, and see how I can provide more valid and. More objective evidences on this particular phenomena. So wherever I go in any conferences, or whenever I talk to anyone, I make sure that I speak from the facts the date which data provides me, not my own experience. And I think it is the first time with you where I’m sharing my own experience with with this topic and I think I should be doing that quite, quite more.

Nippin Anand 20:24
I think so. I mean, I understand the need for authority and validation through objective science. But what’s interesting is that everything that underpins that is curiosity and self lived experiences, and we can pretend to say none of that should contaminate the research. But the moment you frame a research question, it already has an underpinning of your own life experiences. You can’t run away from that. So I think we create that that picture, and I find it fascinating. Vikram just discussing that one thing, that to what extent our own experiences actually reflect in our unbiased research. I think we have covered a great deal. But in closing, I would, I would only ask one question from you, which is that, where are you with your research today, and what can the industry learn from what you have learned through the years of practice and research and so on. Yeah.

Bikram Bhatia 21:25
I mean, so as I said earlier, I mean, our research has been under discussion within the industry. It’s been highly debated across the industry.

Nippin Anand 21:35
Thank you, Vikram, for all your thoughts. Before we go, where should people find you? Obviously, I will put your research work and but if people need to talk to you, where should they find you?

Bikram Bhatia 21:50
Thank you. Nippin, yeah, the best way would be to look at LinkedIn, where I’m available commonly, yeah, that is that would be a point of contact for to get in touch with me. Great.

Nippin Anand 22:05
I will leave your LinkedIn account link along with this podcast. And is there anything else you want to say in closing?

Bikram Bhatia 22:15
Not really. Nippin, thanks a lot for this conversation. I really enjoyed this, and I hope we can have more conversation as we as we go forward.

Nippin Anand 22:26
Absolutely there is nothing more powerful than two seafarers talking and sharing their stories. I thought this was a wonderful podcast, and I can only thank you for giving me the opportunity.