Nippin Anand 00:01
Hello and welcome to Embracing Differences with me, but also with Rachel, my my friend Rachel, Catherine, and Linda. Lovely to have you all here, and I cannot wait to dive into the topic. Maybe a good idea to do a little introduction about ourselves, and then we get into the crooks of stories of care, which is what we want to talk about today. So, over to you, Rachel. Say a few words about yourself, please, so people know who you are and why they should listen to you.

rachel Hagerty 00:36
Hello, everybody. My name is Rachel Hegarty. I’m from Ireland, living in Cork and a Cork woman, double bonus, and I suppose I’ve been involved. I would like to say in environmental safety now for almost 27 years. I have a passion for it. I believe in it. When I suppose I’ve started to ask myself some more grown-up questions within the field, looking outside safety to see how we can explore around understanding of people because there’s a lot of people involvement with safety at all different levels, and understanding those fundamentals that people aren’t numbers, they’re not motivated by numbers. I’m not myself, and so I’ve been exploring, and this this concept or this meaning of care and ethics has captured me. There’s a it resonates, truth resonates. I don’t fully understand it all, but I’m learning, and I’m delighted to be here with you all. And that’s what I have to say at the moment.

Nippin Anand 01:44
Great, Catherine. Would you like to say a few words?

Catherine Logie 01:48
Hi, Nippin. Thank you for inviting me to join this lovely, free-flowing conversation. I’m Catherine Logie. I live in Edinburgh. I’ve worked in the maritime industry for quite a lot of years now. I think at last count I was up to 29 years, and I’ve always been really involved in the maritime education learning kind of area, but working also with maritime professionals from a wide range of sectors, whether it’s HSEQ training or more laterally in software design. So my background before I joined the industry, it seems to be almost coming full full circle now, Nippin, because I many many many years ago at university I studied film and media, English literature, and then I went on to become a teacher of English as a foreign language. I lived overseas. I lived in Italy. I lived in Indonesia, and I taught some mixed nationality, mixed cultural groups here in the UK as well. I’ve worked in teacher training programs on the methodology of language teaching within the maritime sector as well. So I feel that this background I have in language specifically, and the way that we construct meaning, is very, very relevant to the conversations that we’re having now within SPAR, the social psychology of risk. Yeah, so that’s a little bit about me personally. Thanks.

Nippin Anand 03:09
Thank you, Catherine. Linda, would you like to say a few words?

Linda Hamilton 03:13
Sure. Thank you, Nippin, for inviting me to to speak with Catherine and Rachel. So great to to be on this podcast together. I have been either in environmental health and safety or in the laboratory world my entire career. I’ve experienced EHS, environmental health and safety, in industry, heavy manufacturing, and also in other contexts, specifically higher education, and I have I have found that this idea of care and care ethics is what has been missing. I couldn’t identify it. I couldn’t put language to it. I know I know that there was a disturbance in me, just in who I am throughout my career, and only now, as I’m beginning to to spend more time thinking about and learning about Spore, do I find the language to describe the thing that I think is missing from the industry and and from my career for so long. So I’m very excited to be here to have this conversation. I find through my dialog training, that conversations like this bring up a lot of implicit knowing that I didn’t know even existed. So that release of potential I find often occurs in containers like this. Thank you so much for putting it together.

Nippin Anand 04:36
Great. I’m just listening to the three of you and and thinking, you know, you have all spent two and a half to three decades in what you do, maybe more, and you still hold space for so much humility and learning in. You, neither of you sounded about yourselves. Neither of you talked about your achievements. Neither of you spoke about you know anything that would that would come from a position of ego. Let’s say you were outright about your orientation towards people and learning, and I think, and that was totally unconscious to you. This was not something that you had scripted, and that itself is such a great lesson in ethics that I think that listeners would probably resonate with this-that how important it is to understand the care ethics just by listening to how people introduce themselves-and it’s remarkable. I have had very different kinds of conversations, and you know, one can listen to people and see what their orientation is. And was such a wonderful introduction, without saying too much about yourself. So, you said so much about your ethics. So that’s that’s great. It’s I think it’s been a lovely conversation. I actually had a moment this this morning, interviewing somebody, and he was doing a he was talking about a very technical investigation in an organization, and interviewing somebody who had, in his own words, screwed up completely, and this person was being interviewed, And at one stage, he thought that the investigation was going really badly. He took a little pause, and he asked the person. He said, “So, what’s going on in your life? And his response, he just you know could see the the bright spark in his eyes, and he responded by saying, “Well, I don’t know if this is relevant to this discussion, but my wife has just been diagnosed with cancer. But he said, and his next immediate thing was that, but it has nothing to do with this investigation or my my behavior. I don’t know how it’s totally irrelevant. Was the word he used? It’s totally irrelevant. And then he continued, and I’m wondering, you know, after that conversation, and thinking, how far we have come from the person, and how far people who work in organizations have moved away from or created this this delusion between a private life and a and a working life that they do not see the two interacting with each other at all, and and I don’t know what your thoughts are, but I’m I’m still thinking and processing this. That I don’t. I would love to hear Rachel. What do you think? And and Catherine, what do you think? And Linda, what what are your thoughts as you listen to this?

rachel Hagerty 08:18
That that that the word that springs to mind, and I think I’ve I’ve done it myself, and it’s sort of it’s this disconnect from the head and the body. Let’s my apologies. Let’s not keep those together because that rational mind and the emotional swamp, or whatever people want to call it, gets in the way, and I suppose sometimes we don’t question what does it get in the way of. It actually gets in the way of connecting. That man, and he has my sympathy. He had to turn up for work. Obviously, he felt he had to do this investigation, and I’m just making an assumption here now. And he probably needed that to be over, so he could, I don’t know, process what was going on for his wife, or maybe it was a way of, okay, I can I can do this. I have control of this. Where where was the person looking out for him? Where was the care? And again, this celebration of a person being able to turn up and function-maybe we’re celebrating the wrong thing, and I don’t know where this came from. It’s been around a long time, and as I said, I would say I would have been very like that early on in my career. I can do this. This is great. Don’t show weakness. Don’t align. Don’t connect. There’s a job to be done, and that was my immaturity, and I had to learn that. And that was my maturity that was required because I never got anywhere with that, but I had to work on myself, which I did, and it’s. Scary turning that light on, embodied, but it’s there, and I think there’s a bigger price individually and wider if we don’t address that. That’s just what just came to mind.

Nippin Anand 10:18
Catherine, any thoughts?

Catherine Logie 10:21
I mean, I think there’s so many layers. What you just said, Nippin, in that story-that the personal and the professional-and how people try to create this degree of separation to maintain a professional appearance-and I think most people can relate to that. I know I can absolutely. But what I observe is that I’m talking about the maritime industry. There are lots of levels of maritime, and there are people on shore and people at sea working incredibly hard day in and day out to keep ships operating. Okay, and they’re not seen a lot of the time. The work they put in is not seen, whether they’re superintendents, whether they’re crew, and I think their their personal lives wouldn’t be known to to many people. Why why would it? But what what I observe is that if we just think about the shore based operations for a moment, is that there are a lot of senior managers who are shouldering a huge amount of responsibility in the same way that chief engineers and captains are at sea as well, and who is looking after them? Because if the crew members are sick, or can’t work for whatever given reason, or unsure if they’re even on holiday and fall sick, there’s very very little slack in the system. So these senior people are often absorbing a lot. That’s what I think of as them absorbing a lot of stress and tension, and they they appear very calm and stoic and steady and reliable because these are the values that we have. But I think there comes a tipping point when their own health starts to become a problem. Maybe they’re burning out, or they develop some kind of illness, or maybe they have mental health. We don’t really talk very much about the mental health issues and the physical health issues affecting senior people in high-risk industries and what the impact is for them. Within the maritime industry, there is increasingly recognition that seafare health and well-being is very very important, but it seems to default primarily to the charities. There’s a lot of well-being welfare charities that are looking after seafarers, and many companies are trying as well. But how do you how do you work with that organization? It’s quite complex actually. I could keep talking a lot about this, but I said quite a lot. So maybe over to Linda for her response.

Nippin Anand 12:47
Thank you, Catherine. The memory that came to mind when you were speaking, Nippin, was me in my early career. I worked in the corporate world in heavy industry, and it was, I believe, when I was hired, I was the only female. Maybe I was one of two in a large organization dominated by men, and the the energy of the environment, the language that was used, what appeared, the the ways of being that appeared to be acceptable to me were very masculinized. I didn’t feel, and maybe I’m wrong, but the way I trafficked in that environment was that I didn’t have the permission to be anything other than what was modeled in that environment, and it felt very disintegrating to me, and that’s the word that also came to mind when I was listening to Rachel and Catherine. It’s like there’s a there’s a lack of integration of the whole person when there’s a denial that I’m I’m impacted by what’s going on at home, whether it’s you know my my spouse has cancer or my children are struggling or I’m having trouble making ends meet, whatever it is, to deny that that’s part of the whole person that you bring to work, I think is very disintegrating. And for me, it’s only now that I feel either the courage or the permission to show up as my whole self at work. So I’m encouraged by that, but also discouraged that you know I’ve been at this for so many decades. I’m the age that I am, and it’s only now that I feel the permission to to be whole and to be more completely integrated with who I am in the workplace.

Nippin Anand 14:44
Sure, Anand. I’m particularly interested in you know that that was, of course, something that really shook me this morning. But is there anything that you would like to share from your worlds? You know, any personal experience stories that resonate with you? That you would like to to talk about.

rachel Hagerty 15:04
Well, something that just bubbled up, actually, Linda, from what you said about your early career and Catherine, I suppose I’m struck by, and again, I didn’t have the language, but you know, there’s a very, and it’s not gender based, but there’s a very masculine model, you know, be brave, be the hero, have the answers. Don’t show weakness. It’s unfair on everyone. Actually, I feel. And I, when I started off my career, now I had another career before I started in environmental health and safety. I was more community based, and I was working in this particular factory, and I learned so much there. But it was tough. It was it was very masculine, and there was a particular area in the in the molding and had its own culture. It was very much at odds with the wider, quite maverick is what I would say. And I remember when I used to go to the first day, I turned up in a skirt and a top. I did not after that because I had to climb up, and that was not up ladders and things, so I learned a lesson there. I never went up first, but the next part then was I used to dread. I used to feel this dread in my stomach going down into the molding. Nothing was said, but there was groups that would kind of hang around, and the lads were allowed to smoke. I didn’t realize any of this, but I know I’ve been drawn into something. To you know, test me out and whatever, so I ignored it, and you know I went to have a specific conversation with a specific person, and that was fine. But I remember another day I was down there, and something had happened. I can’t really remember. That’s not what’s important. But there was about four lads standing there, and they were laughing and snickering and whatever, and I really felt, oh my goodness, you know, I’m not meant to go over, but I did. It was the bravest thing I did, and I went over and I said, I said, hello, my name’s Rachel. You know, I’m fairly new here. What’s the story? And do you know what happened? It broke things down. They didn’t know me. I mean, I was this person imposed from on high. You know, I mean, I, I, you know. You’ve got to go to that in-between space, but it was hard for me. I had to cross this bridge or whatever you want to call it, and just be nervous and whatever, and just say hello and say, you know, I haven’t a clue really. Thanks very much. Like, but let’s have a conversation. And it really changed the dynamics. It became people. I became a person. I wasn’t this manager who didn’t understand anything there. The lads were not just lads who were trying to be intimidating. You know what? They were. They were just as nervous. Was I going to just cause trouble here now and whatever? Because I didn’t know their stories. They didn’t know me, and I’d become a person for five minutes. Actually, graduated my clipboard, and it’s always stayed with me because it would have been easy for me to perceive those men as, you know, whether anti-women or whatever, and that would have been that judgmental. I went to maybe challenge myself and them a little bit, and it broke down the barriers. And I’ve tried that ever since, you know. But it was hard, though. I still feel it, but it was the right thing to do. That’s just what bubbled up, Linda. Actually,

Nippin Anand 18:11
any thoughts from others as you listen?

Catherine Logie 18:14
Yeah, I mean, I can totally, totally relate to these stories from Rachel and Linda because I guess I joined the industry a long time ago when there weren’t that many female role models either in shipping. So I think my my strength perhaps was because I’d come from a background of teaching. I was accustomed to just kind of no matter how nervous I was feeling, just you know putting on that smile and maybe just going to have a conversation with people and saying hello, tell me about what you do. I’m new to maritime. I don’t know. Tell me. And when you just take that first step, it’s amazing how people reciprocate. And if they don’t, okay. So what you’ve tried. But it’s it’s getting these quick relations with people, just making that human contact, that I think often is missing. Maybe there’s a nervousness about doing it or a fear. But I do think that diversity is super important in in industry, and by diversity I mean in its broadest sense, whether it’s neurodiversity, age, diversity, gender, genders, and you know just thinking about having a real rich mix of people in an environment in a team, so that you get these different perspectives. And I think if you have that, plus some people working in teams who are the integrators, the ones who make conversations and bring people together, then people relax, and that’s when you start to see the care ethics can shine, and people can perform to the best of their abilities, and that’s when you start to see you know really really interesting things happen in the workspace. I think, so it’s all about just having that. I think that little bit of confidence to put yourself out there. You don’t have to be an extrovert to do that.

Nippin Anand 19:53
Oh no, not at all. No, Linda, would you like to?

Nippin Anand 20:00
The thing, the thing that was coming to my mind is less of a specific event and more of a recognition of how my narrative has evolved over time. One of the things that Catherine said that that brought to mind a way that my mindset has shifted is early in my career. I thought I had to to show up and have the answers and impose those answers on the people that I was hired to serve or hired to really enforce rules over. To now more of a mindset around curiosity to enter that space with the other person with curiosity instead of having certainty to impose on them, and that in return has provided some boldness and some courage. Recognizing that I’m not moving into that space for my sake, but I’m moving into that space for our sake to build a relationship together, so that they feel heard and they feel seen, and then and then from that conversation, I can then contribute something to them regarding their work and the risk of their work. That in the end, hopefully, will give them something that they need to recognize risk and to make their work safer as they go, especially now. I work in a context where most people are engaging in the process of discovery, and the imposition of rules and regulations don’t fit well like they do with defined procedures. So I’m finding that the the courage just to move towards a person comes from having a mindset of curiosity instead of one of imposition.

Catherine Logie 21:48
Yeah, if I could pick up on this word care Nippin that we’re we’re thinking about now, you know I’ve got this language background, so I always start by thinking, what does this word mean, and then really mean, and does it mean different things to different people? So then I like to look at the different uses, or in linguistics we say usage, of the word. And if we can just indulge me for a minute, the word “care” is what we call a transitive verb, which means it has to you either care for something or someone. And when you break it down like that and start looking at the language. We talk about taking care of things generally in the workplace. We take care of processes and systems and plans and checklists and tasks, and people are quite comfortable with that and often very proud of how well they are taking care of things. But if we think about the other version of care, which is to take care of people or to care about people, that doesn’t fit as well generally within the planned work that people carry out day to day. So I’ve been given this some thought, and I’m just wondering, really, what you think about this? How do companies and how can companies integrate this care for people in the same way that they take care of tasks and things?

Nippin Anand 23:16
Any thoughts, Rachel or Linda?

rachel Hagerty 23:19
You know, you’ve all triggered something. I mean, there I, I. I I like words. I’m not a linguist, but I I you know I I I’m a I love the etymology of words and looking outside. So, in in the Irish language, kurum is care, and it literally translates as guardianship and accountability, as opposed to, as you say, sort of that compliance. Take care, you know, careful. Be careful, you know, anand all this type of thing. So it’s a little bit more compliance based. It’s not deliberate. It’s subconscious, obviously, you know. But it’s just worked its way in. But kurum is about accountability, guardianship, and it’s worked into the language through the person. It’s on the person through who is happening, and I enjoyed exploring that. And Linda, to your point, I don’t know how many of your, but I was very lucky. I had some great managers who, around language, I mean, I was oh my goodness, compliance procedures ensure most shall to do, and I remember a manager, Peter. He was brilliant, and you know he was a very technically minded man. But he said to me, he did a translation diary. Can we not use shall? Could we, you know, encourage, discuss? So he used to say, every time you come across your procedures now, will you please swap out these words? And because I was very, because compliance, I mixed up compliance with care. It’s not the same thing at all. Yes, you have to give direction and be clear, but if you if you’re engaging with people. Need to certainly allow that vulnerability, the not knowing we’ve talked about, the not having all the answers, and just being a bit more humble. Again, I don’t know how you create that in the professional world in that space, but there is a craving for it. I do think I just think maybe it’s a little bit misguided and it’s very individualistic. It’s all on people. To Catherine, you were talking about senior leadership, and they do absorb a lot. They’re just expected to go off and and you know here’s your EAP program. You go, oh, it’s great, you’re going running or whatever. What’s the company doing in a collective, creating a community, creating spaces where people can have the chat without an agenda to reflect. That’s hard. That’s a hard. That’s us making people look in a different direction. You know, it’s it’s it’s very interesting. I don’t have to answer a few questions. Yeah, but

Nippin Anand 26:01
yeah, but I think you know. I think you all have answers to that. You just haven’t talked deeper about it. Your being has answers to that. You know, being a woman means for many of you, not all of you, but many of you have have children, and many of you have more than one child, and you would very quickly realize that one does not behave like the other. They have very different temperaments, and inherent to care is acknowledging their subjectivity. Is that they are all unique? They are all different, and I think women get that much faster than men do. I’m talking about the feminist ethics now, so that we we start from a position of subjectivity. We we don’t start from the position of confirmance that everyone has to conform to the same rules, because we realize that our children are different, and I think that’s what gives you a unique, you know, puts you in a unique position to take care of other people, like you take care of your children, like you take care of your family. Men don’t have that, you know. Biologically, not possible because of the very different orientation. But I think it’s it comes more naturally to women. I think so.

Nippin Anand 27:36
Nippin, I I love what you just said. One of the reasons is because it it aligns with the thoughts that I was having as Catherine and Rachel were talking about this idea of care as as a word and the meaning of it, and then language in general. And one of the one of the ways that that my my mindset said is also shifting is is moving away from this idea that I need to impose something on someone from the outside to a mind shift of I need to release what’s already inside of this person the the latent potential that’s held within every human being that is often muted because of the environment that they find themselves in, anand this idea of care being letting become, or releasing the latent potential within, I can’t exactly explain it, but it feels like to me, and I’m still developing this thought, a primal truth that to be part of being human is being someone who interacts with others in ways that releases that latent potential within them that they didn’t even recognize they held, and that could also be the earth that could be something even, you know, just your own environment. What is the potential within my environment to to nurture me in a way where my potential can then be released more more completely? So that idea of care being letting become or care being encountering another in a way that releases their potential is really starting to resonate with me these days, and I’m thinking more and more about that.

Catherine Logie 29:32
I would love to talk about that for a minute, Linda, if you don’t mind. What you said about letting potential is exactly aligned with the methodology that we used for teaching English as a foreign language to adults, it was called learner-centred methodology, and it was literally about understanding what would make Rachel different to Nippin and different to Linda in the classroom, so that you could support people through these different methodologies and choose the best fit for that individual. To encourage them to develop as you know as effectively as possible, so I absolutely love what you said about latent potential. I think it it’s very clear, and it means that if you’re looking at a teaching situation traditionally, the teacher would be the font of all knowledge, and the students would be literally standing at the front of the class. The students would be in rows, sitting one behind the other, almost like empty vassals waiting for the teacher to transfer knowledge into their heads. That that’s not how learning works. It’s a very outdated behaviorist approach. But if you flip that model around and understand that every learner, or in the workplace, every individual has its latent potential. It’s just about understanding it, connecting with it, and then encouraging that person to thrive and to connect and to develop themselves. So a very simple shift away from, you know, owning a situation to supporting a situation, I think that’s the reality.

Nippin Anand 31:06
Rachel, you were saying something.

rachel Hagerty 31:08
Yes, I suppose two things that struck me there. I love that, Mindy, you mentioned muted environment. Okay, so autism is part of our family dynamic in our family, and I noticed that we within the family? There’s a lot of masking and mimicking to pass by, to and so muted very much. So really related to that word. I think Catherine, you’re talking about that the you know the the methodology or the the I suppose belief in the learning of your understanding where people are coming from to bring out that latent, but what struck me is I would say Catherine as part of your training curriculum there was a module on ethics there was a module on you know particularly if there’s people interacting I’m not sure but I know in the EHS world I have never studied ethics within my primary degree, and when you think of it, there’s a contradiction there because, and I think a lot of my challenges and lack of language is because I didn’t study ethics, but yet I was meant to go out and engage with people, and it’s something that’s really really struck me. And I think Linda, you’ve been talking about this as well, but we’re discovering it on the wrong side of it. There was never this question when I was going through. Now I came to ethics later, much later in mature, and I’ve seeked it out. And still, I’ve only touched on it. And yet there we are, whatever you want to call trying to motivate people, bring people along, Have conversations, and the methodology that a lot of that that is held up as the way to go about is actually dehumanizing, and we haven’t asked where those methodologies are because there hasn’t been even a basic philosophy and ethics within the EHS profession. And I know now I’m looking more outside of that, and it just it just strikes me that we’re all coming to it. But I don’t know, Catherine, if part of because I think teachers do study ethics. I’m not sure, but I’ve never formally studied it as part of my profession, even though people are huge.

Nippin Anand 33:26
Yes. Is there anything else anyone wants to to say? Anyone wants to add?

Nippin Anand 33:32
I just wanted to add that what Rachel just said became very obvious to me when I began studying the social psychology of risk and Dr. Robert Long brought it to my attention that the until the curriculum for environmental health and safety begins to include some focus, some attention on a more multidisciplinary approach to environmental health and safety, including ethics, that the the shift will it may occur in pockets. I’m embellishing now. It may occur in pockets, but the but the industry as a whole will will not shift until we move away from a curriculum of of purely objective and rational learning to more of a transdisciplinary look at what it means to be in this field and work with people, so I I would love to see that happen. I don’t know that I will be part of that movement at my age and my stage of my career, but I would love to see that happen.

Nippin Anand 34:34
It’s already happening, and you are already part of it. I would say yes. This conversation already proves that that we are having. Catherine, is there anything you would like to say before we conclude?

Catherine Logie 34:49
No, I mean I think there’s been a lot of really interesting things raised by Linda and Rachel. I’m always come back to how do companies work. With this, and how do individuals in companies and businesses in the private sector choose how to behave? I’m quite fascinated by that, at the individual level and the organizational levels. So, if anybody has any words of wisdom, I would love to hear it.

Nippin Anand 35:15
Yeah, I think so too. And I go back to the the the story that I started off with in the beginning. That here is a person whose wife has been diagnosed with cancer, and it just happens to be in the middle of an investigation that the investigator and the one being investigated take a break and they have a cup of coffee and this person asks him, “What is happening in your life? If only we started that conversation at the start, instead of somewhere in the middle. We, as an organization, as individuals, as a team, you whatever, as an industry, would start to see the shift. Now, many people will object to me and say, “Well, that’s not scalable. But love is not scalable. Trust is not scalable. None of that is scalable. For anyone who has studied theology of Christianity, would know Christianity did not spread that way. The early missionaries actually went from house to house, from one home to another home, to spread the message of kindness. It grew from person to person, the language of scaling up is just naive and and simplistic. Any culture does not spread through. Well, it does not scale through through technology or through a technique. You can spread it through conversations. So I think the starting point is to focus on the person and then move to the process, and we often start from the process and move to the person, and I think that needs to change because if you start with the process that you already have a universal law, a universal principle, a universal standard to which everyone needs to conform, it’s utterly naive. But if you start it from the person, you will start to see some problems with your process. That process is not designed to to capture or to to to address the needs of somebody whose wife has just suffered from or diagnosed been diagnosed with cancer, and then you start to put yourself in that position and say, Can this happen to me? Of course, it can happen to you. Would you still treat this person in the same way, knowing that this can happen to you? I think that answer might start to shift thinking for a lot of people. But that can only happen if we start from person and then move towards the process, not from starting from process and moving towards the person. I think that shift needs to take place when we talk about care ethics, and I think I hope some people will listen, some people will think about it, and that would be a good thing. I think. What are you saying?

Catherine Logie 37:54
Couldn’t agree more. Absolutely,

Nippin Anand 37:57
I really love that framing, Nippin, because I I just participated in an event where we started with the with the process and we went to the person, and what I learned from that individual person in a one-on-one meeting asking open-ended questions was so much more honest and authentic and helpful in direction setting than a survey of an entire department.

Nippin Anand 38:29
Absolutely, and that’s a wonderful way to do.

Nippin Anand 38:31
Yeah, I really appreciate the framing and the language that you used. Excuse me for interrupting.

Nippin Anand 38:35
And and underneath all this, Rachel, do you want to say something? I know. No, I

rachel Hagerty 38:40
just wanted to say, you know, it’s another conversation. But this you talk about scalability and process. It’s about this being efficient, and it creates a lot of barriers and confusion. And in order to, it’s about being effective, isn’t it? And that takes time. It is the wandering down, having a chat with someone. It is oh, don’t send the email. It is, but it’s all hard work. But maybe it’s hard work in the in the right way. We all used to break bread together. We all it’s this corporate world is fairly new. It’s 120, maybe 140 years. We did stuff. We broke bread together. We we we had communities. We we we we talked about things, you know. And yes, the tribes got bigger, and then, and I think that just is not appreciated. And that’s why you mentioned about widening, and the multidisciplinary. You know, from my daughter is actually going to hopefully study anthropology and archeology because we’ve had so she knew this about she wants to understand things better you know and that’s one of the of the ways but I do think bringing in the language and when I’m talking to people now I’ll say but is that effective what are we sacro. For this efficiency, you know, let’s just explore being effective, you know, relational, and all that. So that’s just what struck me. Look, I I could talk all day. I think we all could really. We all could. I’m learning so much.

Nippin Anand 40:15
Me also. Well, wonderful talking to all of you. I we would yeah we would leave it here, and we’ll start another conversation again and continue this. But lovely to see you all, and thank you for your time. Really appreciate it. Yes, I will stop recording here. Yes,

Catherine Logie 40:32
thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai