Nippin Anand 0:00
Okay, welcome to embracing differences once again. To this third and final episode of the series, following hyphen, leading in risk. I’m slowly getting it now the power of hyphen, and I have with me, Craig, Jenny and Rob, and we will. We did two sessions so far in this in this series. The first one, we looked at the current state of leadership, how the leadership discourse and models are promoted across industries. In the second session, we looked at what is this following, leading model, what does it look like? And today, we are going to share some stories, some some very personal stories about how we have worked with this model in our own worlds, and what sort of themes we have seen emerging from our practice. So maybe Rob, you want to go first and share your story, or Craig, it doesn’t matter. Yeah, over to you.

Rob Long 1:09
All right, I can start with a simple story. I remember once I was with a large organization who wanted some leadership training. And I didn’t really focus on leadership training at all. I focused on some simple skills in caring, helping, helping and listening. So the course was really about caring, helping and listening. And these people were highly paid executives in a very large international construction company. So I did these series of workshops. And then as a part of the workshop series, I then, as part of the plan, said that each one of these senior executives should come out onto a site and walk and talk on site, but without any fancy shiny suits or anything like that, so that no one knew who they were and the only way a worker would know who the person was would be if their PPE was really clean and shiny and new, or if they had a badge on the front, saying visitor, or a hard hat saying visitor. So we eliminated all of that. We gave the CEO a dirty uniform that had been well worn, and when we walked on site, the workers knew me as a visitor, but the CEO did not have anything to identify him as a visitor, and we went on to one site, and even after four workshops on caring, helping and listening, this CEO automatically went into authoritarian mode. Walked on site, what are you doing? What are you wearing? Why are you standing there? What and so on. He started interrogating workers, and he virtually gave away. One person said, Are you from work cover? Are you from the inspector? So we had to stop it immediately. I pulled apart the whole process. I said to the CEO, we can’t do this if you’re going to keep doing that. What we’re going to do is we’ll jump in the car and we’ll go to a different work site, but this time, you’re not going to say anything. And I mean that except for Hello. My name is John, that’s it. And you would have thought that instruction was was going to kill the guy, because he was an extrovert, and all he wanted to do was exhibit his power. Well, something fascinating happened. We went to this second work site, and we’re in the car driving to the work site, and I said to him, do you think you can possibly suspend all your agenda regardless of what you see. I don’t care if you see someone cutting his arm off. Can you shut up and say nothing? Right? And he agreed that he would do that, that he would say nothing. And so we. Walked around this building site, and all we did was ask open questions. Hello, we’re visitors. Can you tell me what you’re doing? And that was it, right, that went for an hour, and this chief executive learned how important it was to say nothing. It transformed the way he saw leadership. We got back to the car. We hadn’t changed anything on site. No one knew he was the CEO, but he learned so much by listening, he thanked me and said he never realized that he was authoritarian, interfering, talked too much And didn’t listen, and it was such a simple process, but he virtually had to make a covenant. He virtually had to give me a promise that he would just listen. And because he just listened, when I went back on the site later, which was at least, I think about three weeks later I went onto the site, some of the people asked me who he was, because I was also doing training programs with supervisors on that building site, and they were doing a course in supervision skills. Anyway, when I told them that this guy was the CEO, their jaws dropped to the ground. They could not believe it. And I said, What was your impression about the CEO, the guy who runs your business, who is, you know, flying to London every second week. And they said to me, I think he’s a humble man, they said. And I gave that feedback to the leader. And you know, the funny thing is, that was the method. It worked. That’s all we did. We listened. That’s all we did. We just listened. And I think if I could give any message to people who think that leadership is about telling, I would argue the opposite. I would say. If you can learn to be a silent listener, regardless of your power, you will change the workplace, because you will move towards the follower. And so, yes, that’s my story. And and it changed that. It changed that guy. It’s really funny. I mean, this guy was on like, a salary of $3 million and he was talking to workers and subcontractors who are on $80,000 but didn’t make a difference. It was all about his ability to move from his power to move to where they were. And so when we talk about what, what have you got to do to come into this following, leading dynamic, I would say one of the first methods you have to learn is learn to be quiet, ask open questions and listen anyway. That’s my story. It’s a very, very successful story from from a CEO of a extremely large corporation.

Nippin Anand 8:40
Great story. I just wonder, Rob that, how many people will actually understand the depth of what you have just said? Because a lot of people who are in the position of power and authority and extroverted would genuinely believe that they are good listeners. Nobody thinks that they are a bad listener until they have experienced what you have just said, it is very, very hard to come to that profound simplicity, as wake calls it. That’s a moment of profound simplicity, because naively, we all think we are very good listeners. But to get to that stage takes a lot for many people, and especially a world that rewards telling and displaying power. Great. Craig, would you like to share your story?

craig ashhurst 9:36
Yeah, mine’s sort of a bit of what we mentioned before we started recording in that I think we at times, run into and attract like minded people who are already doing stuff but don’t have labels for it. So this particular client who became a friend is was at the time, head of BHP in Indonesia. I won’t make any other identifying markers, but just. To point out the size of the thing. And we had spent number of years doing various things together, and he got to the point where they had to build a new building, and so he decided to design it. So he then rang me, he’s already kicked it off, and he’s already been talking to a designer, but he was saying, like all this stuff you’ve got about, you know, sort of understanding leadership and following and communication and collaboration, we want to design the building around that, rather than the way it normally is. So they put, firstly, all of the meeting rooms were on the outside of the building with all of the lovely views, and the officers were on the inside of the building without the views. Every meeting room had a whiteboard. Now, when I first met him, there were no whiteboards, and that was one of the things we got into, was, how do you capture the conversations? Oh, we don’t need to. So he he’d now got to that point, and they had, you know, those electronic ones that printed out the results and so on. And there was all these sorts of things that over the years of chatting with him, he was in a position to institute that, even in the physical design of the building, to promote people talking with each other, and to reduce that sense of, you know, sort of power and and so forth in the traditional view. So there are a number of things like that that I found working with him was such a joy, because he would take what I was saying and then just leap ahead with it and go, Well, if that’s the case, I should change the organization in this way. And I think when that happens, you can see that what we’re saying is not unique. It might not be common, but sometimes people are just doing it, and they’ve got their own bubble and it’s successful, and so they’re allowed to do it because the organization sees how profitable it is.

Nippin Anand 12:02
Great. Jenny, would you like to step in from here?

Jenny Krasny 12:06
Sure. So as I’ve been listening, you can imagine, I have multiple stories running through my head, but the one that keeps coming back to me is a trip that it was my very first trip to South Africa, and I was attending a an organizational design conference that was being held in a safari park. And aside from the fact that waking up looking out of my room and there’s a baboon in front of the front door, that was something novel, something very different, but I remember that walking into the conference room, I was struck by something that I don’t normally encounter in a workshop of sorts, whether it’s a leadership workshop, An organizational development workshop, and what I encountered was cushions on the ground in a circle. None of us had any things that divided us and separated us from one another. So there were no tables. It was just us sitting on a cushion in a circle in a big room, and this is how it went that we were posed a question. And rather than asking, you know, who wants to go first and all of that, the facilitator introduced us to a Zulu word of Ubuntu, or Ubuntu. I don’t know how to pronounce it, but very much around the philosophy that I am because you are, and it reminds me so much of the dash that we talk about in following and leading. And the facilitator said, a leader is a leader by the grace of their people. It’s not appointed by yourself. It is appointed by your people. And the facilitator said, and this is how it works. There’s usually an order in which the answering of the question is done, and there are many ways you can make it fun. But she said, let’s, let’s honor the Zulu tribal process, and that is, we will begin with the youngest individual in the room and end with the most senior, eldest individual on the in the room. And when she debriefed the conversation, she said, Why do you think we began with the youngest, as opposed to the eldest? And a bunch of people had a lot of opinions. And she said, quite frankly, if the eldest, the most revered, speaks younger, younger person will never speak, or that will fall into group. Think, you know the common word that we might use, but this is how it went. We went from the youngest and we also added a twist to it, who’s also. The most furthest away in location from from where we were, and about 30 of us were invited to ask answer the question. There was another rule for the want of a method, and that was, everybody has an equal and valid voice, and there are a few things behind that. One is, we all need to be considerate of each other in the time we have together. So you know, please, please share, but share sparingly yet meaningfully, and just because someone is younger, older, a particular gender or a tribe, it doesn’t make them more or less than anybody else. We are all equal. And so there we went around the room answering, and I have no idea what the question was anymore, but it was a personal reflection, and the rule was that whoever was appointed the leader in this case, it was the eldest person. They were also told, listen like your life depends on it. Now, typically when we say that to people, they grab their notebooks and their pens and they take notes or start recording. And the rule was no, listen with your whole body. Listen with your eyes, your ears, your instinct. Just listen. And then when we get to the end, before the leader speaks and makes a decision on whatever the question was, they also need to summarize what they heard, and it was a most fascinating activity. Not only watching people squirm around, am I going to remember all of this, but it was beautiful to listen to all the perspectives, because you weren’t allowed to say what they said. You had to put your, you know, interpretation of or your answer to the question. And we got to the end, and what was incredible is when the leader spoke, a bunch of people started crying, and as we debriefed, a number of people said, this is the first time ever that I feel heard, that I’ve been seen, and really at the end of it, what did we do that was so groundbreaking, we did what Rob did on the construction site. We just listened. But listened full body, cast aside anything, and just listened. And in that What emerged was everyone’s feelings, everyone’s experiences and everyone’s story. And I think what was most magical about all of the sharing was when the leader spoke, they so beautifully captured everybody. They captured the feelings. They captured the sentiments. They captured everything that was expressed so beautifully and so powerfully. And in the end, the answer that was arrived at was actually an answer that was combined with everyone’s opinions. It wasn’t consensus voting. It was. We now have a new co created, co imagined, coin embodied solution. So that’s that’s what emerges, and it was all the way made more beautiful by the fact that here we are seated in a safari park outside. We have large, large cats and some baboons on these beautiful cushions on a wooden floor, and here we are answering a question and feeling very seen and very heard. And what did we do? We just listened. I

Nippin Anand 19:02
a i often start Jenny with little ritual at the start of every every conference or every workshop that we do, and just go around introducing yourself, and there’s no designations or ranks or power attached to it, just share what you want to share. And it has gone very well, and it’s gone terribly wrong in both directions. And what I find interesting is that there are times when somebody in position of power will start by introducing themselves and then say, this is how I met Nippin. And then everyone in the room will follow exactly that. He has to make a connection with Nippin in some way or the other. And so it’s not about them. It’s about glorifying the hero in the room, you know. And I find very difficult, actually. But you know, once the myth. It takes energy. God bless you, then you know, and that’s how it goes. I’ve also done this exercise with people. When you tell them to introduce themselves, maybe first, second, third person will share from their heart, but by the time you come to the fourth or fifth person, the engineer will kick in, and he will start giving introduction, followed by a fun fact, you know. And I always struggle with the idea of, I will go, I’m going to share a fun fact with you. So a factual, you know, account of some fun which is an oxymoron. But to be fair, in most instances, what I see is, as you, as you as you also pointed out, Jenny, I see tears in the eyes of people sometimes talking about their braces and how they have been bullied in school because of their braces. And you start to wonder, I only asked you to share what you wanted to share, and where did this come from? You know this, this bullying and harassment and all of that stuff. Where was it was it was always there. It was kept dormant, and suddenly it surfaced because somebody made this space for you to speak whatever you wanted to share. And then the funny thing is, somebody else will pick up on those braces and tell a story about their sister or their brother or somebody else that they knew. So through those braces, through that dog that they own, through that cat that they own, suddenly people start to make a connection between themselves, and that cat or the dog or the braces start to hold people together. And it’s happened more than numerous times, actually, and it really helps to understand that, yes, people are speaking their heart out now, and they are feeling the connection between themselves through all these artifacts. So it’s fascinating what what might come out. You know, when I was first, when I first came into social psychology of risk, one of the things I learned from Rob was suspending your agenda and letting go of control. I didn’t realize how powerful it was until I actually started to put it on my mugs. You know, with this, the mouse and the and the lion and I find it incredibly, incredibly powerful. I think that that the idea of letting go of control is a is has profound power to it. It is really letting go of your ego, and not an easy one. But as you know, going back to Rob’s story, people who have tasted it even once, they realize that the power in it just once, and those first 10 or five to 10 seconds is probably the biggest test for anyone that you have to come up with an answer to a problem. And I think that’s a test for any humble person. And it’s so hard to say, Okay, let me just ask the question, what more can you tell me to for that relationship to start becoming of two equal people, very hard, extremely hard. But from Rob story and from everyone, those who have tasted it have realized how much they have been brainwashed in their lives when they think about listening, but they’re actually not listening. They’re just preparing to say the next big thing to prove themselves. Yeah? So, yeah, very, very powerful. Yes, yes, this whole idea of listening, yes.

Rob Long 23:25
Nippin, I do another activity when I introduce people similar to what you did, but this time, I do it through semiotics, and I say to everyone, look, there’s no one who comes into this room who is not wearing something of significance. So we don’t go to talking, but we go around the room, and you have to find out what is significant of the person beside you and why they are wearing it. And so I’ve never had this not work, so we could do it now. But for example, this, this, it’s cold in Canberra at the moment. This, this cardigan I’m wearing is quite special because it’s made of it’s made in New Zealand from possum hair. So it’s incredibly light, very, very light. It must I wouldn’t even weigh a kilo, but because it’s made of Possum hair, it’s so well insulated, you could go outside, it’d be minus 10, and you wouldn’t be cold. So that’s the story of my jacket, but what we do in the introduction is, is we teach people to listen. So you tell the story of significance to the person beside you, and then they have to relay that story to the group. So when you know you have to retell. Tell a story, you actually also become a better listener because, because you know that the person who’s really going to talk about their jacket could probably say more, but, but they’re not going to do that. You’re going to do that. And we did this once, and we went round the room, and each person did this activity, and it doesn’t matter whether a person was wearing a pair of glasses, like Craig is, and tell the story about when they purchased them and they did an eye test, or whether they talk about why they like the color blue, like Craig’s wearing a blue top, or whatever. Doesn’t matter. Anyway, we did this activity once, which is where you tell the story of the person beside you, and we had one woman who was wearing a necklace, and we had no idea, because it was just an inquiry, open inquiry, and this was the necklace of her daughter who had suicided three months earlier, and all someone did has just said, can you tell me about the necklace? So that we instructed everybody that that was the only question you would ask would be an open question, can you tell me about anyway, this woman told the story of her daughter, and then you can imagine the tears that followed with the person beside them, because rather than talking about her own daughter, she was talking about someone else’s grief and someone else’s tragedy. But you never know what’s going to come out of these situations when you have a method that creates listening and creates retelling, but that’s just another method that I use just for introductions that is so powerful it’s not funny, and I’ve never found anyone Even if it’s a wedding ring, an engagement ring, a friendship ring, a brooch or a pair of shoes, you know, someone will come out and say, well, these are special shoes for me. And they’ll give you a reason why. And then the person beside them has to tell the group again, the focus is listening, but you create an intensity of listening, because you’re going to retell someone else’s story, and it’s a wonderful thing to do with a group of people,

craig ashhurst 27:35
listening to everybody else. I’m thinking that there are a lot of individual things we do that focus on the individual change of the person, but I think there are also structural things that can be done in organizations. I mentioned about the whiteboards, but I think there are also policies and other things that have to be backed up by the relationships, but a recognition that these things matter. So some work I’m just doing recently, one of the things that came out of it was that the organization that I’m doing this work for, they have all these policies, but they they specifically set up the relationships with the subcontractors so that people collaborate and talk to each other. So it’s not really just that, you know, you have to do this, as one guy said, Because I interviewed a whole lot of people, and he said, Look, I could get more money elsewhere, but these people have my back, and if I have to leave early because I’ve got to get my son to the doctor or whatever, they’ll be fine with that. And it struck me that what that’s producing is that relationship in the zone of reciprocal relationship of recognition and care, rather than where you go into organizations, and the first thing they say is, we’re not a charity, you know, we’re an organization. And I feel like saying but you don’t have to treat people like shit just because you’re an organization. Those two things are not the opposite of each other. So I think there are structural and policy things that can be put in place, as well as methods that are supporting the whole approach, which is really ontologically a matter of saying we’re seeing humans as equal, so that they may have different roles, and that person may be the CEO, but we’re not actually saying they’re superior just because they’ve got a better or a bigger role. So

Nippin Anand 29:44
what do you say? Jenny,

Jenny Krasny 29:44
well, it has me ponder a customer from from many, many, many years ago, I was doing an activity in the room where I was inviting the leaders to line up in order of I seem to be in order. Of things today, in order of the most longest serving member of the organization, to the most junior or the newest member of the organization. And I remember there was an individual. I’m going to call him Joe. I kind of remember what his name was, but Joe had been with the organization for 45 years. He even said that he lied on his application in order to get an apprenticeship. And he talked about what it was like back then, and it was in in the aggregates kind of space, and he said we didn’t have this thing we call PPE, we would turn up, and sometimes we might have sand shoes or runners on and with a very short shorts, and we’re talking North Queensland, we’d have a shirt that didn’t have much in terms of sleeves, and that’s how, that’s how we drove. And he said, you know, my manager was an XYZ kind of individual, but you know what, Jen, he cared. He said, You know, every weekend he would come back to the operation, he and his wife would make some lunch, and we’d all sit together and break bread together and have a conversation and and then later on this and then we went around the room and had other conversations. But later on, this individual approached me, and he said, Jen, it’s not like this anymore. You know, back then, my manager might have been what he was, but as I said, he cared, and we liked each other on site. We knew each other’s stories. We even went fishing together. We looked forward to spending time outside of work together. He said, Today, people can’t wait for Friday to come around, for the gates to close and just go off into their own independent lives. We don’t know each other anymore. Harping back to what Rob was mentioning only a few sessions ago, but he said, but it’s got worse than that. He said, Once upon a time, I was known as Joe. Today I’m known as 346, so not only am I no longer Joe, I’m an inanimate object on wheels. I am the truck that I drive. And so now if, if someone needs to summon me to have a conversation, they don’t summon me. They summon my number. And that, when he shared that story again, he was heartbroken. He said, I once, you know, it was, it was the people in this organization that kept me coming back. He said, now it’s the money, because I need to pay a mortgage, but I don’t, I don’t feel like I’m anybody. I’m just a means to an end for the organization. So this is, you know, we talk about policies and practices. This is almost the reverse Craig where, rather than bringing people together, what a way to separate people, and maybe it was done in the name of efficiency, it’s easier to call a number, or it’s easy, even worse, to project the digital number on a screen. Someone will see it, and it will summon them. But what have we lost in the process? We’ve lost that connection. So that’s what conjures up for me, Nippin, as I listen

Nippin Anand 33:27
absolutely I think many people find it very hard. Maybe they are already finding it very hard as they’re listening to us, because the kind of things that we are talking have become so alien to many people in the way this whole idea of measurement and control and efficiency is taken over the world. People cannot even imagine that there exists a world where people can sit together five minutes and just have a conversation for many people. But I do think, and I have seen this on many instances, that nevertheless, there are people who are doing wonders in the background and keeping it all together. I have seen many other the first thing that I notice is that the business cards of people. I look at business cards without designation. I look at people who are very quiet and contemplating right at the back of the session. They’re just quietly listening. And these are the people who are holding it all together in this performative world, and you know what their good work is, not only being acknowledged by somebody in the organization, but the clients that who they are serving. I know of many instances where clients don’t want this person to leave the organization, because he or she is the one who’s actually delivering value. So I think while many people have lost hope that these things are probably not any more relevant, I think because the kind of literature, the kind of articles, the kind of podcasts, the kind of worldview that that we have been exposed to is creating this false picture, and we need to challenge all these things, sometimes, once in a while, this. Say that think about I always ask the people this question. Say you are obviously quite successful, and that’s why you’ll be here. You’re doing this job. You’re doing you’re part of this workshop. Tell me who was responsible for this success, and how did they treat you? And it’s an eye opening moment for people to say, yes, there have been people who have existed, and there are people who exist because of whom they have come to where they are, and these are the people who know how to listen and meet people in between. They don’t have this urge to prove themselves. Right always, it’s just that we don’t hear about them anymore these days, because they’re not part of the popular discourse and the books and the podcasts that we are exposed to, I think that we live in a very false world in many ways. I realized this after writing so many newsletters, that there is nothing more powerful than just writing a personal email to someone and reach out to say, let’s have a chat. Let’s have a coffee. People appreciate that so much more than sending tons and volumes of newsletters like some people are just an object to consume all of this. So I think we just been brainwashed, in some sense.

craig ashhurst 36:13
And I think related to that is that sometimes all we’re doing is validating what people are feeling or thinking, but it’s not part of the acceptable sort of leadership mantra. And so they feel like, even if they they think they’re doing the right thing, they feel they’re doing the wrong thing because they’re getting all of the emphasis of No, you should be, you know, tougher or whatever that’s all,

Nippin Anand 36:44
yes, well, great. Is there anything else anyone wants to add? I think we have shared beautiful stories from all of us, but is there anything else anyone wants to add before we leave?

Rob Long 36:59
Just one thing. Nippin, I think, I think the issue of time is also very important. So we’ve spoken about methods, and we’ve spoken about things we do that works. You spoke about suspended gender. We spoke about listening the missing element. The key missing element is time, and it’s interesting. Craig just made a comment. I often get emails from people or SMS saying, Rob, I know you’re busy and I know you have no time, but I’d like to ask you this question, and I write back to them say, where do you get this busyness from? I’m I’m not busy, but it’s a projection. And so time becomes a false narrative for people, and so they throw it on you, and they say, Oh, well, Craig, you must be a very busy person. So can I have 10 seconds of your time? But all of the things we’ve been talking about for the last 50 minutes involve the importance of having time for someone else and for relinquishing control to give them your time as well. And so I think time is that missing element, which we haven’t spoken about in the following leading. You have to have the time to leave yourself, to leave your power, to go into the hyphen and meet them where they are. So I just like to add that I think we need to talk as much about how leading and following is contingent about the time we’re prepared to give to each other. And of course, if you’re awfully busy, well, you’ve got no time for anyone. You’ve moved into the I it. You’re not in the i thou, and I’ll just finish with that

craig ashhurst 39:04
beautiful, yes, absolutely. The word that comes to mind when you talk about following leading is be learning to become inefficient. I think that’s that’s a very important thing, because often when you ask people, What are you being efficient for? And they have no answer to that. They just want to be efficient for the sake of being efficient. This is an unfortunate space to be in. Yeah, I like to juxtapose it to effective and say you’re being efficient, but sometimes being effective is not efficient, and because otherwise they go, Oh, but I can’t be not efficient, because efficient is somehow good, but you know, yes, and when they’ve gone through some process which is inefficient, but they’ve seen the results, and you can say, well, that was really inefficient, but gee, it was effective, so maybe it’s more. As well.

Nippin Anand 40:01
Yeah, Craig, you’re absolutely right. You know, the reason I use the word inefficient is to shake people up because they have never heard this word before. They just have never heard that there is a word called inefficient, if they have it is always in a very negative sense, and sometimes it’s good to shake people up to say things like, when you were dating with your with your girlfriend for the first time, were you being efficient? Jenny, you want to say something. I

Jenny Krasny 40:33
don’t think I can add any more to what what has been beautifully shared. Well, actually, other than to build on the concept of time and inefficiency and suspending judgment is also and relinquishing control is to also embrace not knowing and be comfortable being vulnerable and not knowing, because that’s part of the pain of doing this work is that you may be taken on a roller coaster ride and you may not have an answer for anything. Not that anyone’s asking for an answer. They’re just asking for what Rob said your time and someone just to hear them. And yet, also in this concept of efficiency and effectiveness, is the idea I have to fix, no but in order to suspend, the need to fix and control and judge is also the ability to sit with vulnerability and discomfort,

craig ashhurst 41:34
yeah, and sometimes, particularly as an external person that I am, the client goes, when you set something up, so what’s going to happen? And you go, I don’t know. And they said, Hang on, we’re paying you this amount of money. What do you mean? You don’t know. And I said, that’s the whole point. They know. I don’t. So let’s see what happens. And it really doesn’t match the sort of like, but we’re paying you money for a result, and we’re saying, No, that’s not how humanity works. That’s that it has to be more the listening to find out what everybody’s thinking. I

Nippin Anand 42:10
don’t know this is the right time to say, but I will say it anyway. Little story that comes to mind of a ship that sailed out from a port within the UK. I will not name the port or the ship, but the ship sails out from the port, and as she was sailing out, there was a dent on the ship side as a result of leaving, and somebody from the dock side saw it, and they also noticed that the captain had seen it from the bridge so but the captain kept because it was a weekend, the captain did not go back to the company to report the dent, but this person did, and Monday morning, there was an email from the company to the captains to say, why did you not report this dent? We have come to know about it through a third party, and it’s very embarrassing, because according to section so and so of the safety management system, you are supposed to be informing us about all of this. So the captain thought, said that, in my professional opinion, it was not a big thing. So I thought, I will not spoil your weekend and wait until Monday and then let you know about it. It’s all well in control. And that conversation went on from Monday until Friday, and it produced trails and trails and trails of emails. And the captain told me, If only somebody had asked the question, is there anything we can do to help we’ve come to realize that there is a there is a dent on the ship side, and is there anything that you would like to share? Are you concerned about this conversation would have taken no more than five minutes. So here, tied into the idea of control is heaps and heaps of uncertainty that we generate, inefficiency that we generate, and we think that we are being efficient if we started the conversation in the hyphen, and we try to connect with this person and meet them in between. This would have been a five minutes job, and I see this pattern keeps repeating all the time. We have no time to listen, and so we end up spending so much more time fixing our amending our broken relationships. It just doesn’t work.

craig ashhurst 44:20
Interesting, story related to that recent one where the people were saying, we collaborate with our partners and subbies and everything really well operationally, but as soon as it gets onto risk and safety, suddenly it’s all different, and it’s all policing and so on. And we just want it to be like operations. So what you were saying to me is, yeah, do they do that in in with a dent? Do they do the same thing if it’s a logistical question or a financial question?

Nippin Anand 44:58
So true. Yes. Brilliant. Is there anything anyone wants to add? Anything else? Great. Well, this is the final part of the series, and if you’re listening, we will now invite you to a conversation, to an open conversation about following, leading with a hyphen in between. And we hope that you will join us and we can meet you, and we can have some more conversations about following leading and see where that takes. Us all. Thank you for

craig ashhurst 45:30
listening.