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Voices of Unsafety

December 22, 2023

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It is often said that safety people require a predisposition of care and empathy towards others. Rosa Carrillo’s well-researched book ‘OHS Voices from The Resistance’ brings a paradox to surface. What if care and empathy make (safety) people vulnerable and fragile in the face of growing aggression and brutalism in the workplaces? The book is packed with stories of people working in the safety function struggle to maintain their identity and become seen as misfits in their organisations. While some find themselves out grouped from within their own organisations, others consider abandoning the safety industry as a whole. Rosa’s conversation with Nippin is deeply personal and reflective of her own struggles and ethnicity. For those interested, Rosa’s offers her wisdom on how to tackle and live with some of these issues: https://carrilloconsultants.com/product/voices-from-the-resistance/

Further information

 

SPEAKERS

Rosa Carrillo, Nippin

 

Nippin  00:03

Welcome to another episode of embracing differences with me Nippin Anand, a podcast aimed at engaging with different viewpoints and perspectives about how we as human beings learn, unlearn, recognise risk, tackled risk, and become culturally sensitive. Talking of which, we have a tweet his workshop coming up in London, from the 21st to 23rd of February, on culture and risk intelligence. If you’re wondering, what is the connection between culture and risk intelligence? My answer is this. How can we recognise risk in our everyday life? By stepping into another culture? How much do we tend to normalise and assume as we go about making sense of the world around us, until we meet someone from another culture, who sees things completely different to us. In those moments, what do we do? Do we judge them? Do we control them? Do we evaluate their culture, their rituals, habits, language, behaviours, ethics and narratives? From our point of view? Or do we genuinely make an attempt to understand their culture from their own point of view? That takes confronting our own assumptions and expanding our worldview. And that is what makes us culturally sensitive and risk intelligent. If you want to hear more, you can go on our website nebulous dot solutions, slash events. And you will find all the details on the event page including a detailed brochure of what we will cover in this workshop. It is often said that safety people should be more caring and empathetic towards the others. But here’s a different perspective. Rosa Carrillo’s book, which is voices from resistance brings a very interesting paradox to surface. Rosa questions? What if Karen empathy makes safety people more vulnerable and fragile in the face of growing aggression and brutalism? in many workplaces? The book is packed with stories of people working in a safety function, who struggled to maintain their identity and can become easily seen as misfits within their own organisations. When some find themselves or group from within their own workplaces. Others consider leaving the safety industry as a whole. And moving on. This is a very personal and reflective conversation with Rosa Carrillo we have our own struggles and ethnicity. A very interesting conversation, and I hope that it will make you think and reflect upon the state of our industry as a whole.

 

Rosa Carrillo  02:58

are in morning? Oh, are you? Yeah, good. I think

 

Nippin  03:07

what was the motivation to write the book that you wrote? Tell us about that. Rosa. People want to hear what was the motivation to write the book.

 

Rosa Carrillo  03:20

It’s I was doing a series of interviews during COVID. About with safety professionals, and I found out that during COVID, they were suffering quite a bit from overwork and stress. And, and a lot of people felt that even though they were being asked to do all of these extra things, which put in a lot of extra hours, there was no recognition or appreciation for these efforts. And so I put those into my, my former book that I wrote the health and safety leadership strategies, because I began to see that the health and safety professionals, not everyone, but a great many of them, I’d say about at least 50% of them are very active in the social side of the organisation, they build relationships with employees, they communicate that they care and, and so they play an important role in the company’s ability to communicate, we care about you as a person. And it’s all because of their personal their personality, and they’re, what they want to do their purpose, their purpose in life. Then I met Rob, Rob long. And we, because he’s been saying that people are treated very badly. People who work in safety are just treated atrociously very badly. And he shared some of the stories that he had been getting, I mean, he gets emails all the time. Unlike I can’t, I don’t know what I’m going to do. And besides myself, it’s just so awful trying to get something done. Nobody listens to me. And it just so happened that I had done a survey last year, not very big survey was like 59 people. And 50% of them said that they were thinking about quitting their job. And they were also talking about all these factors that I just shared with you. I was gonna write an article about that. And so I showed it to rob. And he said, you have a book here. And forget about the survey, because it’s only 59 people. Right? Just delve into the powerful part of the article was the stories, the dialogue that I’d had with people. And that’s how I began to write about that. And also, Rob’s famous question, what is your message? What is your message in forcing me to say, Okay, here’s, here’s my message, I’m focused on safety and health professionals, but it’s not just about them. It’s about all people, because we are neglecting so much human potential in the workplace. We don’t listen, we don’t notice what people are contributing who they are, what their purpose is, in life, what. And therefore, we have all of these people who just show up to work, and don’t contribute not even half of their potential talent. That’s the message of the book, really. And then I go into some recommendations about what we might be able to do, like change the educational structure of safety and health professionals, and

 

Nippin  06:55

what was the motivation? When we were where does it find meaning in your world? Why is this topic so important to us? I hear Rob said, There’s a book out there, but you know, even to write a book, there has to be some, some inner meaning to it. I’m trying to get to that inner meaning, Rosa, I would like to know, why does that chime so much with you?

 

Rosa Carrillo  07:19

Well, as I said, I realised that it wasn’t about safety professionals, it was about all the people who are it don’t have direct power, that only have influence. And I have been always one of those people, because organisational development is, is also filled with people who really cared deeply about people. And that was another interesting aspect of my research was that I began to think, Wow, do they are people categorised into those who care too much about people, you have to be suspicious of them? That was my that’s my suspicion right there. And I wrote about that in the book. But yeah, it was my own story reflected, in fact, in the opening of the book, I call it you know, reveal, revealing my biases. My and that’s where I talk about, this has been my experience. And it’s led me to have an interest in working with safety professionals because I, I want to support their efforts in making work better for people.

 

Nippin  08:37

And that’s what I want to do. And let’s let’s just build on that Rosa. Often experiences are like images that become imprinted in our psyche. And there is a story there that experiences is there any one particular story or stories that that you would like to share from where you draw all this attribution and meaning?

 

Rosa Carrillo  09:15

Well, I mean, I’ve had experiences where, as a young woman, I felt that credit for my work was given to other people and the frustration of saying, hey, what about me, you know, about my contributions, and having that taken as aggression, that I’m too aggressive and, and people say, Well, I don’t want to work with her because she’s too emotional, and too aggressive and just walking away devastated because you I worked so hard and gave everything I had and then for people to just turn Rana and say okay, well, you’re not on the project anymore. You know, that’s it. It happened when I was a young woman. But it also happened quite recently I was working on a project. And I, it was a lot of virtual work where a lot of calls were. Were virtual a lot of planning and discussions. And I would ask questions, I would put them into the chat box. And I get an email from the team leader for that project. And he says that he was he had a meeting with three of the clients, and they think that I’m meddling that I’m self promoting and interfering. And that he had agreed with them that I would no longer that I was only allowed to participate in one. When groups calls, I could no longer participate in any other calls. And so, at first, it didn’t affect me very much at that, oh, those are strange words, they only, only only women get called mettlesome. I think I don’t know, do you know of any men that I’ve ever been called mettlesome. Understand the self promotion piece. Because I had sent an article that I wrote to them, I said, I think you’ll be able to understand the problem better if you read this article on that. That’s self promoting. I. And I realised that these were gender biases. And also, the fact that my questions were disturbing, because they didn’t know the answers. And they didn’t fit into any context that they were used to. So I didn’t take it to heart. Very proud of myself. However, days went by, and my team leader never called me and he just sent me that email and never called me. And then I started to think, Well, why didn’t he stand up for me? Why didn’t he say, Well, what we should do is we should have a call with her and find out why she’s asking these questions and what she’s trying to accomplish. He didn’t. I’m sure he’s the one that recommended that I just not attend any of the calls. But that was a solution. That, I mean, he’s paying me a lot of money. He’s paying me what I’m worth. But he still doesn’t value it. I don’t know what to say about that. So, I continued, I struggled with myself. But I continued to work with the one group that I had been said that you can work with them because I really liked those women and they were really trying to do something new and different in the company as well. Why Why should I withdraw from supporting them? And so I continued and I so you know, I have to my life had to come. compartmentalise compartmentalise say You know, when you get a note like that, you should really resign. If you don’t feel that you’ve been given your opportunity to, I mean, no opportunity to express myself as if I were somebody deliver deliberately trying to sabotage the work. That’s how I was treated. To let’s just get rid of her. But you know, what, I’m sure that at some point, he’ll call me and ask me to work on another project. That’s what’s baffling about this, that that people are so unaware and unconscious, of how their actions impact human beings, so insensitive to that. And he was used to be an Admiral in the Navy. They know how to be leaders. Yeah, so that’s my personal experience of that. I I tried to work on it by telling these stories. As you know, I my books have a lot of stories, interviews, I’ve always done a lot of interviews and stories where people talk about how they’ve been successful because of the people and the relationships and the conversations and how, how important that is. And it reaches some people. Absolutely.

 

Nippin  14:50

There was a what I am, I’m hearing from you is in your case. I think you Being marginalised from within the organisation? And I don’t know, I mean, you haven’t made it explicit so far. But what do you think was the reason for marginalisation? That’s one question. And the other thing is that, how does that connect with the theme of the book, which talks about the dissatisfaction of a particular clan, or a group, which we call you call safety professionals? I mean, how does that compare with it? So there are two questions there.

 

Rosa Carrillo  15:39

Oh, okay. Would you say just one at a time? Yeah, sure.

 

Nippin  15:42

So let’s start with the first one. You did not? I mean, of course, if now when you look back and try and make sense of it? What was the reason for this marginalisation? Am I? Am I jumping too far ahead by saying that you thought that you were a woman in the industry? Or do you think? Or is that what you said?

 

Rosa Carrillo  16:02

Well, that was definitely one part of it, especially when they use those descriptors of us, okay, they wouldn’t say that man. And, and men promote themselves all the time. And, and frankly, uh, you know, women promote themselves all the time. So why why it was, was it the particular culture of this one company where you’re not allowed to, and they stepped overstep the boundary there. But I think the, if I have to learn, the way to only way to learn is to look at your own contribution to the situation. And what I did was, I offered information that was not requested, was not asked for. And by doing that, I interfered with their getting there through their agendas. That was one thing, they said that they couldn’t get through their meeting agenda, because I kept sidetracking them with questions. So I mean, that’s a whole mentality in itself. And so what I needed the to have done, really, would be to discuss my view of how I was going to participate and find out from them. If, if they would agree to that. Because I’m an outsider, an outsider, now, and if I were an outsider, because because I observed this with other people, that that are very famous men, usually white men, they, they can do exactly the same thing. And not get that feedback. Because they have a place that just because of who they are, because they’re men, because they’re, they’re successful. They have a lot of, you know, they always want to bring in, oh, let’s bring in caughlin. Let’s bring in Deckard let’s bring in so and so they, they have the ultimate word of knowledge. And I can assure you if they had brought in Decker that he would have devastated them, you know, because he’s not, he doesn’t hold back his criticism, you know, but they would have said, Oh, wow, wow, that’s so wise. No, there’s no justification for it. So what I try to do and teach other people in my situation is okay, what I learned myself is don’t do don’t offer knowledge to people who haven’t asked for it. Sir, it’s simple.

 

Nippin  19:04

It’s so synchronous, because I can say the same thing. about a woman who wrote to me, after attending one of one, not one, a couple of my sessions and saying exactly that, that you came across as as criticising every other safety expert in your in your meeting. And in your in your online session, it was a zoom session. I asked the question. Is that so? And you said yes. And at one point you even had a kind of wicked smile on your face when you were actually doing that and I struggled because I just could not make meaning of it. And it’s interesting you say that because that person firmly believed that I was being arrogant. And I, I don’t know to date. I can I can only ask other people, there were about 11 people more in the room? And I don’t know, none of them actually said anything of that sort. So I still struggled to understand to date. Was that meaning she attributed? Or was that situation really present in that space? I don’t know, Rosa. But let’s let’s move on from here. It’s a really interesting thing. Because what I wanted to understand from you was that yes, now that you’ve explained it, is the man versus woman issue, and more specifically, a white man versus a woman of colour issue? Right. That happens in my world, also, in my my personal world, so But my question now was to you was that, how does that show up in a book that talks about safety professionals? What what do what is the message of this book? How do you? How do you see that playing in your in your book that those dynamics, I

 

Rosa Carrillo  21:20

was triggered by one of my interviews? Were one it was a white male. And he said, I think we’re going to have to look at some of this information that’s coming out about inclusion and belonging, the ER D, E, I, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion, as it applies to safety professionals, because I constantly feel excluded. So it was like a wake up call. Whoa. Okay. So that’s a whole other dimension to exclusion that nobody else has written about it. You there is some interesting work on there on people. They’re called peripheral experts. They’re people with mental health workers experience it all the time. You’re, you’re brought in to help because there’s a mental health situation, but then, oh, well, we can’t give people that time off, because it’s going to interfere with with getting the work done, right. So they’re called peripheral experts, because they’re not part of the core business, or they’re not core business partners, they don’t understand they interfere with the real work that needs to be done. And yet, you’ve been called there because there’s a real problem. And in you, they need your expertise. And now they’re not listening to you. So that’s, that’s the safety professional for you. And even the ones who weren’t thinking, first of all, the I would have to say 50%, more than 50% of the people I interviewed admitted that they were thinking of quitting their job. Maybe 10% felt that they were in a job that they liked, that had purpose so that it doesn’t mean that the ones who weren’t thinking about quitting their job or were actually fulfilled, it just means that they’re able to, they’re able to acclimate. So it’ll that you’ll see when you read my book, they’ll say, Well, I’m mostly ignored. But, you know, I go about my work. And this is what I feel I’m accomplishing. So, yeah, you do an internal assessment. And you fix the situation internally, not many people can do that. Most of them go into stress mode, depression, all kinds of illnesses, because they’re so stressed. And then you have the suicide problem, which Sam Goodman wrote about in his book that he was tired of seeing his friends committing suicide that work in safety. Okay, well, I’m sure the construction industry has the highest suicide rate. Why is that? What’s going on? So that’s what it has to do with the safety professional?

 

Nippin  24:26

Absolutely. You know,

 

Rosa Carrillo  24:28

they’re not the problem. It’s an example of a problem that we have in in our workplaces. Yeah.

 

Nippin  24:36

I mean, from what I understand, thematically, there is a there is a theme that reappears from your own experience into a whole industry or whole group of people, which is this risk and safety people. And I wanted to just give you a flavour of my own world, Rosa, that six years in the Nazi I used to be a safety inspector or auditor or investigator, whatever your and, and the, and then it was a quite a meaningless work job in many ways. And also being I think I was I was one of the few Asians in the organisation, there were a few. But one of the ways I started to find meaning in my work was when I used to go on board ships and, and very regularly and interact with seafarers and oil workers. And that was the time, I used to really enjoy my work. And one of the themes, and that’s how I started to find my internal meaning. And I would actually, those days, I was very, very interested in the idea of work as imagined versus work as done. And one of the journals I still I used to maintain for a very long time was that how do you write a procedure about something and and tell me how do you actually do it in reality, and I collected about maybe more than 1000 stories of that said, that was my, my meaning making, and that’s how I used to keep myself sane in that work. Yes. So that really, I mean, and I think having that kind of purpose and meaning or some way to, to release that negative energy is very important, because it’s very easy, as you very rightly said, to go into the negative spiral and start to feel suicidal and whatnot. So yes, but I think this theme about people not being, you know, finding fulfilment in their work. It’s not just restricted to risk and safety, right? There are many other professions, absolutely.

 

Rosa Carrillo  26:49

Mental health people, the organisational development, a lot of people in HR feel that way. It basically, I narrowed it down to people who have influence, who don’t have any influence that are being asked to fix these very difficult problems, you know, which have to do with people. And so there’s a complete disconnect and lack of appreciation at the root cause being there’s a lack of appreciation for the role of the human psyche, in organisations.

 

Nippin  27:31

Yeah, but isn’t it inherent to the whole idea of an organisation to take control away from people and centralise it and so when, if you look at the great example of Adam Smith, you know, you break even the process of creating a pin into 16 different processes. So you’re left with repetitive, mundane kind of work. So that is the fulfilment, you know, I am reminded of a story of a baker is a bakery in Italy, Rosa, where the only time the baker used to find joy was come back home and bake his own bread because everything was mechanised in the workplace. So it’s it is I think it’s it’s a much bigger problem. But what I’m interested to hear from you is that what make makes risk and safety. So, so such so, so dissatisfaction disorders, I mean, people so dissatisfied in their roles are fulfilling this responsibility, because surely there is an expectation here, which is not being met with a some kind of reality, isn’t it? We’ll talk me through that. What have you found in your book?

 

Rosa Carrillo  28:42

Not so nice. Are you asking what it is about safety and health that creates that dynamic?

 

Nippin  28:52

Yes, yes, absolutely. I want to hear from you.

 

Rosa Carrillo  29:00

Well, it has to do with the from, from the conversations and interactions I’ve had, it seems to boil down to I seem to be the only one that cares about the people. And I’m not being heard. And therefore, there’s a lot of suffering going on around me. So that’s a certain personality type. Which I identify with being an organisational development is that you you go to school, you study and you get all these methodologies to improve communication and collaboration and, you know, motivation, employee motivation, and all of that and then you go into the workplace and you find out out that there’s no support for it, even if they say they’re hiring you for that, when you start to try to implement these things you can’t. And as I said, it’s not just safety, but safety is attracting more and more. And one of my interviews, someone remarked that it could be because of the number of women entering the safety field, which used to be completely male dominated. It’s now maybe a third women, that the presence of women is changing the focus of safety and health and men to that are attracted seemed to have the people that you know, express concern about people have that strong feminine influence, because the feminine energy isn’t just about men and women’s just to get some personality way of being in the world. So there’s a lot of light, you have a lot of feminine energy, it expresses itself as listening and, and really caring to understand about other people, the masculine energy doesn’t, doesn’t have that.

 

Nippin  31:21

This is fascinating. Because Aberdeen, where I live, has traditionally been a very masculine industry, starting from fishing, crane night work, and now oil and gas. So and if you go to the museum, there is a beautiful picture there of men working in one place. And this is how it where it has led to. So as Jung would say, the the masculine side of every man is overly developed. And the feminine side is missing on the animal and the animals as we call it, but But you know, Rosa, what I’m thinking as you’re speaking is that first of all, I want to hear from you what i When you say people who care for others. What do you mean by that? What is what is carrying in your world? What does it actually mean? And the second question I have is, why is it that people who feel that they care for other people find themselves out groped? So first, let’s talk the first one first, from your, from your research from your experience? What does caring even mean?

 

Rosa Carrillo  32:31

Well, I think it starts with empathy, which not everybody has, that when you are able to feel other people’s pain. It feels as your own. And so you’re motivated to try and help the other person and you care that they’re in pain because you’re in pain. I think it’s that simple. And some people are much more empathetic than others. I think we call them empaths. You know, and I think I am one of those people not not to an extreme sense, but I am like, I walk into a room and I immediately feel tension. If there is any uneasiness I literally my stomach gets into knots and starts to feel that way. So I’m very sensitive to the energy that other people I couldn’t tell if you like me, the second you lay eyes on me because you we humans decide what the other person is within seconds without any other further ado, you know, somebody looks at you and you’re like, I’m like stunned sometimes how, how some people have completely dismiss me within the first few seconds. And I know it’s there. So then then you go about the process if it’s important to you, you go about the process of trying to develop a relationship but but it never you’re never able to develop the kind of relationship you can with somebody who is open like curious or maybe even likes you because you remind them of their mother or something, you know.

 

Nippin  34:21

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and Rosa. Why I mean, it’s such a noble trait isn’t a to be able to feel another person’s pain to be able to empathise with them, as you very rightly said. And my question really was that what makes these people out grabbed from the larger organisation? What is it that you what is it that you discovered?

 

Rosa Carrillo  34:52

Which the mode of AI it was quite a shock to me because I had never had that thought before that that the people that caring what it’s called caring too much about people, I forget who said it, it was one of the, one of the interviews I did. So you know, you we just, the problem was safety is they have to stop, they care too much, you have to just stop that. Because if they if they keep that up, they’re not going to be able to be effective. Which may be true, I mean, caring is one thing, but not having it cloud your mind so that you can’t, you know, think about what strategies you’re going to use, then then it becomes a weakness. So everything is a strength or a weakness. And maybe in between. So it never occurred to me that those who care about people was a category that may that include that made you included or excluded from certain circles, because I’m talking now about the operational, the people who dominate in the operational environment. They are not, it’s rare to find an impasse in that environment. He won’t. I mean, I don’t know if there are, I suppose there have been CEOs that were impasse that and I know, I know, there have been because you’ll hear stories of some of the people who like when they had to close a plant down, and they knew it was going to destroy the work, you know, everybody’s life because the work would be gone. And, and the way that they went about doing it was so completely different than somebody who just only cared about the bottom line. So there are a few, but mostly people in power are not are not made that way, maybe. Maybe because being empathetic or too much of an empath keeps you from taking those actions that acquire wealth and power.

 

Nippin  37:15

Yeah, you’re right. That makes a lot of sense, because there are ways of getting to wealth and power. But they’re not. It’s not expedient. It takes patience and perseverance, and not many people have that. Such a good point. And Rosa, so I hear you and so powerful. So what is the book? What is what is the what is the message of the book? What now we hear the problem statement, we understand this? What what you encountered, but how do you suggest moving forward in this book, with this issue of people in the Risk and Safety world feeling marginalised? What do you recommend as a way forward?

 

Rosa Carrillo  38:07

Well, I’m hoping that the book is read by managers, people in power. It’s good for people who are in safety and health to read it, but I would like the executives and safety and health to I don’t think they have the perspective that I’m putting into the book. They don’t really and you know, when you’re mired in it yourself, it’s very hard to, to see reality. So you’re so busy. justifying the way you’re being treated marginalised, that you don’t have much empathy for other people who are having trouble with it, it’s like, well, you know, just suck it up and get over it, because it’s not going to do any good to talk about it, and nothing’s going to change. Don’t even get me started. So the OSI want people to just have the information, think about it, and then begin to actively lobby for some of the things for example, very early in the education process. We’re lacking a lot of very important basics that the safety practitioners need to be successful in the social area of life, you know, how to have, how to communicate how to approach somebody of that has power when you have none. Because right now, those are the things that that are really causing a lot of stress in people’s lives. They they’re not equipped. You’re told, you’re told you’re gonna go in and you’re going to help people and you’re going to help keep them safe. And then all you meet are obstacles and barriers because you you haven’t been told the simple truths, which is when you go in, start with humble inquiry and do not try to tell people what to do, don’t?

 

Nippin  40:04

Yeah. Very interesting, Rosa, because even in my years of experience, I felt the same thing that the last thing you should do, even if you know the answer is to go and tell that here’s the answer, I think, especially if you’re dealing with somebody who is higher up in the hierarchy than you are, from your very, very good life, life example, never go into that zone where the other person feels threatened. By what what you know, and I think that’s the best way to do it is to ask open questions, ask a question. Everything else is seen as a threat.

 

Rosa Carrillo  40:42

Yes.

 

Nippin  40:45

So powerful? Yeah.

 

Rosa Carrillo  40:47

Yeah, and it can get very frustrating. Because you’re, you’re in the position of always having to manage the relationship, you have to be very conscious of how you say things, how you express things, you have to be very conscious of the reactions. So that if you see if you sent something you have to immediately say, but what do you know? What are you thinking about what I just said? And those are things I had to learn the hard way?

 

Nippin  41:19

Yes? Which was a those are all techniques, one can learn? What is the? What is the ethic behind it? What is the what is a way of living behind it? Have you? Have you thought about that? How should one live life as a risk and safety person or a professional, if you like?

 

Rosa Carrillo  41:41

Well, it’s it all. And I don’t think there’s something just particularly applies to safety professionals, I keep thinking about nurses and the situation that they’re in, if you look at the stress rates there, it’s and the fear they have of speaking out, to correct them to give information to a doctor, I mean, working under those conditions is its sole breaking it after, you know, after many, many years, the only remedy is meditation. Well, only remedy is meditation because you arrive at a place in you know, there’s many forms of meditation, and that talking just about the way you cross your legs and sit in the silence is very important because the mind it sometimes it has a tendency to rehash the past and bring up all of the obstacles and all of those things. And so sometimes that twice a remnant, meditation is the only remedy because you shut the mind down. So that you have a you have a chance to go back to the truth of who you are. I am enough, you know, I am I am enough. And I’m fine the way I am. I don’t have to change anyone or anything. That’s so liberating.

 

Nippin  43:29

It is, it is yes. Is that what you also recommending the book?

 

Rosa Carrillo  43:39

I Yeah, it’s I talk a lot about Carl Jung book. And also just the process of I mean, not everybody’s going to do it. What I’m hoping is that the person who wants to assume a leadership position will do it. Because then they will be sensitive to what other people are undergoing and create that when we talk about psychological safety. We’re talking about the person who was able to reach that level of consciousness where they know who themselves and they’re sensitive to other people. And they learn how to create that environment that will allow people to express themselves until the point of until they reach the point. It’s almost like you’re you’re you’re you create this bubble and then eventually hopefully they reach the point where now I don’t need anybody else to create my psychological safety. Because I’ll just go inside and that’s where psychological safety lives. And I don’t you know, it’s very commercialised now that you can hire me and I’ll show you how to create psychological safety role created for you But the if they don’t say, well, that’s means you’re going to have to go into a little bit of a self transformation process, unless you’re already there. And that’s the thing that when you meet a leader who’s just right on the cusp, usually they had a heart attack or something, you know, where they realise they gotta change their lives when you meet somebody like that. You have to get some work done.

 

Nippin  45:26

It’s so interesting, because I, I’ve started doing all my workshops now, beginning with silence. But five minutes before we even get into a discussion. And I remember, very recently, there was an experience where we sat in silence for five minutes. And people were just constantly shaking their legs, some of them, and they were just waiting for the fifth minute to get over. And one of them I asked the question I said, So how did it feel? He said, My mind was racing. I just wanted this to end it was very uncomfortable. That was fascinating to hear. Yes.

 

Rosa Carrillo  46:08

That’s what the mind that’s it’s built to do that. It’s doing its job, warning you right there. It’s always warning you about impending disaster. And it’s so it wears you out. So remnant meditation is the only remedy. It’s where you’re going to find yourself. It’s where you’re going to find some place the centre of psychological safety. So that you can replenish yourself

 

Nippin  46:35

is although I don’t agree with the word psychological safety, but it’s you it’s your your, your your your thought it’s fascinating. Anything you would like to end with, before we give it a conclusion. Is there anything in first of all, you’re coming to London? Of course, I’m looking forward to meeting you in person for the first time. But that’s super exciting. But is there anything else you would like to say?

 

Rosa Carrillo  47:03

We haven’t mentioned the name of the book? Oh, yeah,

 

Nippin  47:06

of course we have. And of course we haven’t so So where can people? Yeah, yeah, great OHS voices for from the resistance. A tribe shaped by marginalisation and philosophy of caring is creating a new occupational health and safety identity. My goodness, it’s a beautiful visual out there, Rosa. And where can people find this book?

 

Rosa Carrillo  47:30

They can go to it’s on my website Kareo consultants.com.

 

Nippin  47:35

Okay, I will include the link to your website, the and and the blurb of the book? And is there anything else you would like to say before, before we conclude?

 

Rosa Carrillo  48:00

I suppose if you’re in that situation yourself where you feel a sense of desperation, or just stress to the point where it’s beginning to affect your health, that you seriously consider leaving that job. Just Just leave. And you don’t have to leave until you found a new job, but you should definitely find. You can find a place where you will be appreciated and where you will feel that you belong. But you have to trust yourself that it is possible, and that you have the ability to do it. It’s there

 

Nippin  48:55

when Wonderful, thank you, Rosa.

 

Rosa Carrillo  48:59

Thank you for making this possible. It’s always great to talk to you. You certainly made me think a lot.

 

Nippin  49:06

No, it was I just loved it. Do you have any questions, any feedback, any comments, any criticism, you can always write to us? You can write to me personally, at support@novellus.solutions. You can also leave a message for us on our website, novellus.solutions. You can email me personally at Nippin.Anand@novellus.solutions and you can find me on LinkedIn. Until then, have a good day.