What happens when change happens? Where do you look for the most reliable indications of change? How do you know you are moving in the right direction with your change management? Listen to the story of one organisation that has taken the first step in faith and embraced a new way of doing risk and safety.
I hope you enjoy the authenticity of this conversation as much as I enjoyed creating this podcast. And I hope this podcast gives you some thoughts about learning and change.
Ankush Suri, Abdul Sami, Nippin Anand
Ankush Suri 00:00
So I realised that it’s not it is not human. How can I be doing what I’ve been doing for last 15 or 20 years. So I stopped. First thing what I do is Now, earlier, whenever a master used to call me for some problem, I would assume that this is his problem for first few seconds I would hear and I would assume that this is his problem and start giving him answers. Now I listen.
Nippin Anand 00:28
Hello, and welcome to embracing differences with me Nippin Anand, founder of novellus, a podcast series dedicated to understanding different perspectives about how we as human beings, or rather, social beings make decisions. The podcast series draws from different disciplines including religion, mythology, sociology, anthropology, social psychology, biology, neuroscientists, and stem, making it truly transdisciplinary meaning transporting Hurghada travelling across disciplines. The idea is not to claim that one method or discipline is superior to the other, but to hold competing disciplines, competing values, diverse perspectives intention
Nippin Anand 01:17
and when that happens, we create space for doubt and reflection. The idea is to enjoy travelling and the ambiguity that comes with it. Experiencing dissonance discomfort, how else do we learn? Well, today’s podcast
is about understanding the meaning of learning and change. Most organisations struggle to define what learning means, let alone the ability to measure measure meaningful change. As you listen to the story of these two gentlemen, you will know what learning and change means, or rather, you will feel what learning and change means. Today I’m joined by Abdullah Sami and Uncle Suri to ship managers from one of the prominent shipping companies in the world synergy maritime who reflect upon their journey of learning and change for the last 10 months or so. To set the background, synergy maritime was the first organisation in the world to embrace the philosophy and methods of social psychology of risk with novellas. And in this podcast. These two ship managers share the journey with me. Just listening to them to their authentic
Nippin Anand 02:32
conversations gave me so many goosebumps to see how much they have achieved both professional and organisational level, but also at a personal level. I hope you enjoy this podcast as much as I did interviewing them.
Ankush Suri 02:50
Hi, my name is Ankush Suri. I was sailing on oil chemical tankers for 15 years since 2015. Since a lot of 15, I’m working a short 30 and daily operations along with the risk associated with these daily operations of oil chemical tankers. Right now I’m working and staying in a city called Chennai. I have a four year old young daughter and a beautiful wife, my loving parents, but they are staying with us as a family heritage. And this is a brief for now.
Nippin Anand 03:32
Thank you oh gosh. Abdulle would you like to introduce yourself?
Abdul Sami 03:37
Yeah, thanks. Nippin. So my name is Abdul Sami. On the personal front I only the I belong to a city called Pink City Jaipur way up and not India. And I’m blessed with two lovely boys and a loving wife. My parents stay in Jaipur. At the moment, we all have moved to Chennai and I’m working for my current organisation in Chennai on the professional front I in my role in my past role, I was sailing as a master as a captain, mostly on oil chemical tankers with an oil major for last 20 years. And then during COVID I moved and switch to a shore role in India and working for Synergy Now as a Marine superintendent to HSE. So Ankush and I are colleagues, but on the different ends of the same office. But same role to make sure shifts are safe people are safe and the environment remains clear.
Nippin Anand 04:51
Let’s begin with now our journey with social psychology of risk and I will be interested You hear? Maybe we can start from the beginning. Or wherever you would like to start from what’s what? You know, we met in Chennai, I travelled to Chennai, and I remember having some some really tough conversations with Abdullah, at least. He was very vocal. Abdullah, were very vocal in the beginning. And you said something that I still remember uses in Hindi, you said Mazovia. You and that basically means you really were enjoying it. Without saying too much, I would be interested to hear what what what was going on in your minds at that time when you first when you first attended the even before, you know, you were probably you’re told that there will be a course happening on so and so what were your expectations? What was your experience? What was it like? Can you tell me a little bit about that? Both of you, maybe we can start with Abdullah?
Abdul Sami 05:57
Yeah, I think Nippin That goes to middle of last year. 2022.
Nippin Anand 06:02
When you came? It was March 2022. Yeah, it’s almost a year now. Yes, yeah. Almost
Abdul Sami 06:06
a year. So I think I was called up by one of my seniors who is in regular touch with you, Captain around us. And he went about to the room, asking everyone to do a session with you. And he asked everyone’s honest opinion. And my opinion goes clear No. That you don’t we probably should not have a session with Nippin. But then, he insisted. And then I think one day you right? And I was called to attend the session not called maybe it means I was directed that we have a session. So I said, Okay, move to soldier have to learn new things. Keep an open mind. Let’s see how it goes. I was from a typical oil, major background, we know everything. You know, we know our highway. We know our ways, sort of things and but the same time a learning mindset. So let’s give it a try. I sat through your I think Ankush was there. Yes, I was there. We were both and there. And then as the session progressed, I said, aha, okay, so I had a lot of aha moments. I said, Okay, this is interesting. He has something that is very different from what perspective I have. And, and that’s why, towards the end of the session, I said Mazovia I mean, it was a complete, I would say 180 degree, if you go to 16 back end up on the same course. But it was like a flip quality degree. Okay. Okay, okay, this is a new way of doing safety. So what we have been taught over the past 20 years, and difficult transition, but at the same time, because interesting. So find the motivation of the let’s learn, let’s say, hear him out, let’s try a little bit here and there, whatever we can do. And then you also not just gradually, I think, in that direction, and the way you presented things and showed us actually where we actually are, but we think where we are, and the stark reality during those conversations that on the culture lead, and where we are actually and where we want to be. But we think VR, and that just, you know, showed the that we still have to go take that journey, you know, in that direction. So that was one of the aha moments.
Nippin Anand 08:47
Let’s hear from from Uncle Shan, because what was your experience? And in those in those couple of days that we spent together in Chennai?
Ankush Suri 08:55
Yeah. Hi, I’m Nippin. I think I was one of the few who had started this journey with you in synergy. When Governor Romney was introduced. In the beginning, I was totally lost. I didn’t know what I’m actually I was not even understanding the English at that time. What is he talking? It took me I think, three four sessions to understand that what are we discussing? And then once around after fourth or fifth session, Kevin Dundas, incidentally came to my seat and started discussing and at that time, I started making more sense to me from that point onwards, when he gave me a brief, what he was thinking and what you are bringing and what information you are giving to us, and how it is going to help us to succeed ourselves first, and then the company and the people who are working with us. For for me, the biggest takeaway till now is that at least I have understood what I should not do. That is the first thing I have learned. The learning of what to do is Throughout life, it will keep changing, I will keep changing and my learning will keep changing, but at least now I can proudly say but I should not do the word safety is overhyped industry, the real meaning of safety till now after 20 years in, in the job still discovering, and I think you have brought a bit closer to us towards the word safety, acceptance of not the black and white, but the different shades of Gray’s which are there, no two persons are same, and no two persons are same on two different days also, same person is different than two days. So the acceptance of the change, acceptance of somebody else’s emotions, feelings, reactions, that makes what we talk about is safety. how things go wrong, or how things go good on any two particular days, how to break up analyse is what we should aim. And then the cloud, the culture cloud, that was the most fascinating, I think, theory which, and how it keeps evolving, and it’s so dynamic. And how it makes the basis of a company, I was basically very, very impressed with that theory, which I think I would have otherwise not known if it was not for you. That that this is my takeaway. And to do some of just to sum up, I think after, I’m not that great fan of reading, but whatever you have daughters, and whatever discussions and practicals, which we have done, definitely has helped me in my personal life and professional life. I am much calm, composed, better accepted in my own family, then a person what I was. This is the impact of other sessions, which I added
Nippin Anand 11:56
these two questions I want to ask you, actually you through something very, very powerful. You said many powerful things. But two things I want to ask you one is what you shouldn’t do? What is it and tell me in very practical terms, what is it that you’re not doing one? And the other thing I want to ask you is, from what I’m hearing is that you become a different person. And that’s powerful. That is very powerful. So I want to hear the first bit from you, what is it that you’re not doing anymore? In your everyday work?
Ankush Suri 12:30
I am very aggressive by nature somehow.
Nippin Anand 12:36
Abdul Sami 12:38
He has to be probably the roll demand and sometimes, but yeah.
Ankush Suri 12:42
So, you know, your sessions have made me realise that, that my aggressiveness is so toxic for others. I was not realising it. I was not realising it. I was just thinking that why are they not doing the job on time? Why are they they’re not following my orders? Why are they not just doing what I’m saying? Just stop and do. But then your sessions have made a first of all those six sessions I was totally against you. But I was very quiet i i could not speak because I could not control you. You are trying to break everything? What would what I am still not doing? So you were challenging me a lot. But then find day after that. The conversation with Captain lambdas. I don’t know why he chose me. It wasn’t the only person from my team who has done this, this workshop, that conversation with Captain Ramdas, self realisation of what I have been doing wrong. My my aim to overpower everyone and made them do what I want them to do was killing you know, all the emotions in my team, making them apart from me, he ensure be on shift. You know, he’s kind of a person who walks through the room. People used to turn away, turn away their faces. So I realised that it’s not it is not human, how can I be doing what I’ve been doing for last 15 or 20 years. So, I stopped that first thing what I do is Now, earlier whenever a master used to call me for some problem, I would assume that this is his problem for first few seconds I would hear and I would assume that this is his problem and start giving him answers. Now I listen. So one more gift which I have taken is that I am a better listener than hearing what is being told to me. I feel their emotions. I try to understand what is it trying to tell him? For example, one of one of the master he is going through a rough time managing a lot of STS we know he is doing STS operations. He has done seven operations in last 10 days. He’s tired He’s bleeding me for the hill is asking me a 12 hour stop, so that he and his crew can take rest and do the job safely for everybody else. If it was me before, I would have said you have done just seven operations in 11 days. Now I’m telling him Captain, you have done seven operations in 11 days, it’s too much. It is not human to do so many tasks in 11 days. So I heard I heard his feeling I heard through his communication, I understood the feeling and the pain of the group, made a decision approach different stakeholders, and stop the vessel for 12 hours before the next operation, not over that discuss the plan with stakeholders got to know that vessel has to be doing this for next one month, we gave them four additional crew so that the people on board can take rest and do their jobs without being fatigued. So this, this is the difference. I don’t think I would have done this, if it was reversed me. I would have done them that continue the job. This is normal, everybody.
Abdul Sami 16:10
This is your duty.
Ankush Suri 16:11
This is your duty, this is what you’re paid for. I would have used everything, everything what is materialistic to as the master to be quiet and do the job.
Nippin Anand 16:24
And Ankush before I go to Abdul, one final question, you’ve given me so much to think about, by the way? Is this that what were you angry about in the first four to six sessions when we were when I was conducting the workshops? What was making you angry?
Ankush Suri 16:44
See, as I told you, I was in a frame at that time, where I think I’m right. And I was thinking that I am doing it for you also, I know that you are not able to think or you are not able to take decision. So I want you to bring to that level. So I was totally convinced myself that whatever I’m doing, and I’m doing in the best interest of not only me but others also. But but your thoughts actually challenged me. You know, I was never a listener, forget about hearing. So asking me to do that was absolute against my basic nature. And I don’t know how I’m not sure if it was not used? How would I change myself? I would have not even known that I have I am I’m so away from the reality, or the person which I should be. That is why it was it was this is this is not going. But But luckily, you know, I found I found a way it’s like, you know, attainment, suddenly, somehow that light was shown and I can actually grab with both hands. And I really don’t know till now, why I thought that like it was just the leap of faith. This is something good. And I want to be good. And I want to do good. So let’s get hold of it.
Nippin Anand 18:11
Wonderful. It’s like a poem. So wonderful. Thank you. We’ll go to other other tell me what you are thinking what is your experience?
Abdul Sami 18:22
Yeah, so Nippin Initially, I was reluctant not to join, then as I said, I found this is something different. And professionally when I was introduced to that session, and the general sentiment in our organisation is that we mean change. Okay, so synergy is not about doing things the way everyone else is doing. Okay. So probably that is the reason why we have come so far in shatta, maybe a short span of time. So you can say okay, luck may have market conditions may have played but there is a lot of thought process and a lot of hard work on the part of a team and the leaders leadership. So, so given that thought kitchell, let’s try something new, let’s listen out. So to Nippin and then so then I flip, I became a pro meat pro in the sense not pro in the SPQR, but Pro to the method, which you were trying to tell us to go about with safety. So then initially the team was little again, same. It was hesitant, little hesitancy, little reluctance, especially from people who are little senior who have been ashore for long. And then I think we had a lot of conversations and there. I was thinking I have understood that part. And then you don’t know actually, what I’m trying to tell you is this. So then I would be In that back to my team, and then again, your name, or this session would come up, and then we’ve discussed some things and then gradually, I could see that I became a good listener. So in the sense that when I hear conversations now when I don’t try to judge anyone, number one, so if someone is talking, I don’t want to judge him to give an example is like the other day on cush. And I had two uncles called uncle’s wanted someone to debrief a chief officer, okay, who had been called to Officer for certain after, after vessel had a poor side inspection. So we need to, we need to talk to him. So, I knew through your sessions that I have my biases. So it’s not what other person is bringing to the table, when he is talking or when we are doing an investigation or when we are talking to a kid for that matter, any one. So, I will have my biases, the moment he walks into the room, I, I have stopped assuming now that who is he? What is he? If something has happened gone wrong? Or my kid has done something wrong? Then I try to now get away with my assumptions. Because that sets the bias in me. So to coming back to the example with you, I think unfortunately call it uncle shadows CV in his hand where number of years with the company, which shifts he had done what name? What name, what age? I said that because Don’t give me that paper. I’ll take it. Once we start through the session. Once I get a hang of what how he introduces himself. Let him talk about himself, then we’ll get what he is he who is he? So then maybe I’ll then the platform is set I have now he has told me he had to first move. So whatever biases I will have, will not go but at least I’ve challenged them. So then I took the CV then I read and then we made him talk through. So that’s one thing like letting understanding that I am a bias person. That’s the my nature. That’s everyone’s nature. So I think you showed us those biases. And I asked you, can we study each bias and he said, there are so many biases that there is no point, at least for at this stage. So that’s one good part. And then during the conversations while at home with my kids are even assured, I try to have more open conversations like I have stopped asking questions. What’s the temperature? I would ask what’s the weather like? Okay, how are you feeling? You know, not so that that will strike a conversation. And then that person will be you will have more to talk, I will have more to talk and then we strike the conversation. And then once we come to a level the conversation is more rich, more easy. We let go because, again, we didn’t judge, we we let go of our biases. So the conversation is rich. So even with my kid, if I’m asking, like you said, I applied the same thing, which you taught us an incident investigation, I would ask him, How was your day? That is my opening question. Whenever I go home, I asked him, How was your day? Sometimes he is hesitant, sometimes he’s in good mood, he would talk but then he would run me through the day. So I will not earlier I will use to ask how was your math class today? And you would say it was good. And that was the end? So I have growing kids, you know, he’s eight. So then those conversations are which are the same what we are doing here doing no talking to someone who walks in. And so letting go of voices not being judgmental, and yeah, and the third part is that more active, listening to, to latch on to something which is not feelings of
Nippin Anand 24:40
great. How? Yeah, it’s so interesting that both of you are drawing examples not just from work, but also from your personal lives. So something has changed at a more fundamental level. It’s not just about work. Something much deeper has changed. What changes do you see in the wild Your organisation apart from your own experiences, your interaction with others, both Ankush, both as at senior level, but also at whatever level, what changes are you seeing as a result of what we’ve been doing so far?
Abdul Sami 25:16
I think one of the changes, particularly in our part of the job, we are very heavy. So everything’s going smooth, it’s been smooth, you know, people don’t bother to call you in the office, we would be doing our thing, they will be doing their thing at sea, and managing vessels. It’s when things go wrong, okay, then it is escalated ashore, then you have a report to make you have interviews to be documented, you have to do an audit, you have to do an incident investigation. And so earlier, what we would do is we would we did not I would say we did not have a framework where we could understand the emotions behind those decisions behind why did that person not do that particular procedure? Why did he skip that? Is it not? He is a master or he’s a chief, second Indian chief engineer. This is common sense. This is part of the job. Why didn’t he do that? So, so earlier, we would use words like lack of situational awareness, lack of knowledge, or lack of knowledge about the environment Cheever captain has lack of knowledge or lack of competence, we were making judgments like competence is something which is decided by IMO and the Director General was shipping in India, and we’re liking lack of competency. I’m not saying we still don’t do put that in a report, but at least at least now, we have a framework we acknowledge that this is the shortcoming of our system of the way we do incident investigation. So on paper, if they industry whatever the present scenario is you may use those particular jargon, but one to one with the persons who are affected whether they are the ship’s crew or the office personnel. At least with them, we try to understand we try to know that what was the decision what emotions was he going through you have a medical medwakh Someone has to be evacuated medic on board. And now we will if we give a checklist to master to say captain, please do this please do this please do this and we are on him on WhatsApp and on the teams and pushing him obviously he will do it because he also does not wants to forget it. But we have to let go some control it is he who should be able to decide what is the order of things in those checklists to please them, because obviously he’s obviously in the panic. If it’s an accident, he knows that questions you’ll be asked to he knows that. So there is a lot of stress is emotion. So you cannot expect people at least to you know, just blindly go and follow the procedures when they are under stress. You know they have the master went to sleep after 10 hours of pilot pilotage and after two hours the third man calls him the chief cook has broken his leg and you won’t expect that someone who started philosophy 18 hours will come up and the first question he lost was the goddamn checklist. Let’s start filling in third man let’s trick so things like this at least now we know that in our present system, we have a pay you have a long way to go. And we have to improve the system. There is a short term but when we are talking to those people, we don’t judge them the way we used to when you know black and white he didn’t follow the procedure is not competent Is that is that at least we are not doing though that those things to those people.
Ankush Suri 28:55
I will give you two examples. Last one year since I have been practising this, the KPIs whatever KPIs has been set by but those KPIs My vessels are better than what they were a previous year. I am not sure whether this is the only reason but definitely the communication which I have been doing. I think that is one of the important the way I have been. I’m giving them now that I’m giving them the feeling that they are in control. They are in power. I am here only to support they have to do the job for me. And I am grateful to them for that. That they are doing a good job calling them you know giving them small WhatsApps and appreciating them on emails telephone calls. First communication with any telephone call with the Master Chief Endeavour is to appreciate them the hard work to get that is
Nippin Anand 29:52
very powerful. How mature you guys have become it makes it fills my heart with joy. Is there any thing you want to say in closing before we leave?
Abdul Sami 30:04
Yeah, I think unless like the same is with everything unless we have a name, or a process, we can’t identify these things with the sessions and everything we somehow got structure. He, maybe this is this, this is this. So now we are able to identify and then address it. We did not have a structure. Personally,
Nippin Anand 30:28
you didn’t have a philosophy, or philosophy. Yeah, it’s a thing. I just want to say one thing here, which is very important is that you can read a number of safety books and risk books. And it’s unfortunate that a lot of new theories and safety that are evolving, is down to slogans is down to presentations, it’s down to some jazzy language, very appealing language. But what it doesn’t give you is a philosophy. And because it doesn’t give you a philosophy at the most, you can make some superficial changes. But what you have gained in this nine to 10 months as an is an embodiment, it’s an experience, it’s gone in your gut. And when they experience those in your gut, your instinct changes. And when your instinct changes, it doesn’t matter whether you’re at work, or you’re at home, where doesn’t matter whether you’re talking to a colleague or to your daughter or your son, your will be the same change person you have transformed, your life has changed. And that is learning that is learning I, I gathered so much from this conversation, it was such a joy, this listening to the two of you. Great, thank you very much for your time. I really enjoyed this conversation. And I will see you in Chennai Very soon now.
Ankush Suri 31:51
Yeah, sure. But thank you so much Nippin for, for making us realise. Now we always keep talking that in seminars like what we have now, we should have a session from Nippin. Because, like you said, with all of these things, what we’re trying to achieve is just the superficial good. We are not even going deep. We are not doing CT scan or MRI,
Abdul Sami 32:12
you can call it human element, human performance and human error. And then we have side 2.0 Come Yes, I’m one Lightship and all those but again, the philosophy the framework, whatever we call it is missing somewhere else, or Yeah, I think it’s
everything is so KPI, metrics, numbers, performance, that’s it, but nobody’s talking about working human emotions, their feelings, why would they attach to you and attach to your numbers if you’re not attached to deal with emotions to that and we are a company where we have 30,000 people working for us on our ships. If we don’t if we don’t target if we don’t make them feel that we are connected, they are connected to us the change what we want them to do while they work on ships is not I understand totally it cannot be like first now we are changing gradually, little by little, maybe now there are breaking sessions. So, maybe the changes already are there which we can express maybe gradually we will iterate and do something, but if we don’t consciously try it maybe we will again go back to our ways, but I think we will not after nine months of rolling over the clothes that
Abdul Sami 33:25
because and then when we change I think the culture what we say the safety culture, you know, I think the people there in the seminar, yes, when only son gave a I think not a slogan, but that was the title of his PowerPoint presentation, where he said safety eats culture for breakfast. So, so, so conversations are now happening. So now when we individually change the culture will change. There was a case where I think a junior engineer, he wanted to report something about I would say something related to MARPOL violation alleged MARPOL violation. So onboard the vessel, so and then he reported, I think, when he was off the ship, okay. And there was a lot of he had written a letter, he had sent an email. But the question from I think Captain Ramdas was very clear, that he wanted to understand that is this a real culture where you have to get off the ship to report the violation, alleged violation? Or is there is more to the story, maybe he has a grudge you know, or maybe this is a cultural on that particular ship. So as a director, he had that worry, that that you know, trying to understand the culture that is this subculture on the ship or is this a culture across the company, and we are assuming that no, you know, as a company, we have an open reporting culture. So those conversations are coming from the top. So somewhere now they are coming from us. So I think we will finally have answers to those questions. And we will be able to make that change gradually, step by step.
Nippin Anand 35:23
Of course, it has to be it has to be slow, all change has to be slow, because it’s embodied. It is experiential, it goes in your veins and your blood and your your emotions and your instinct. And that’s how you change. But it takes time, of course, it takes time. And if we didn’t devote six to eight months, we, as far as I remember, every week, we had a session for an hour for six months, of course, you know, alternative week for everyone, but and then I think that you don’t realise the power of that weekly sessions. That although you may think, you know, you’re not paying attention, you’re not listening, or you’re not always present, you’re not always present, some of you were absent for a very, very long time in between. But the power of that continuous interaction was that your it got into your gut, slowly, it really reached the lowest level. And, and I always say this one thing to people that, you know, you have to understand this one thing that the nervous system, which is the brain is only about four to 500 million years old, life on this planet has existed for 4 billion years. So we are not brain centric. A state is something else have a body thinks on its own. And when the body thinks on its own, and if you can change that your gestures and your habits and your instinct that is much more powerful than changing your mind and your brain or putting information in your brain and expecting any sort of change in you. It never works that way. It has to be body centric, something that the Hindu philosophy understand so well. You know, we are we do this, we are embodied beings, we are all embodied. We don’t pay enough attention to that. What a great conversation it has been. I really enjoyed talking to both of you.
Ankush Suri 37:11
Yeah, same. Yeah, same me, I’ve
Abdul Sami 37:13
Nippin Anand 37:14
But you know what, keep learning because this is very important. You’re learning has not ended, there’s a long way to go. There’s a lot to learn. So never think that you have reached a saturation point. There’s a lot, a lot more than what we know. We all have to learn every day each day. But you’re practising that learning, which is very good. It’s not just about and this is important. You have to practice it. If you don’t practice it, you will lose it very quickly. So great, thank you very much, both of you. I really enjoyed talking to you. Despite all the problems with technology, we made it work so and we will see you in China very soon. Yes, sure.
Abdul Sami 37:51
So see you soon. Bye. Have a nice
Ankush Suri 37:55
day. You Bye.
Nippin Anand 38:00
How did you find it? Did you find it useful? Did it give you goosebumps like I did to me? Some years ago, you know, I interviewed a successful business person in Aberdeen and I asked him, What is the point in learning and his response was to become a better person. I think we have lost it. We have lost this message in the noise of efficiency, productivity, safety, performance, and all the fluff that comes with it. Learning in true sense, is precisely what these two men experienced, to become a better person to transform and challenge their worldview, to stop talking and start listening to experience a change within. There is so much to think about in this podcast. And I felt so good that novellus was part of the journey in learning and change. Now if you have any questions, you’re more than welcome to contact us. If you want to give some feedback. You can always write to me Nippin Anand that novellus dot solutions and I will always respond to you. The podcast is available on Spotify, Apple pod bean, Google podcast and anchor.
You can also find me on my website Nippin anand.com, or my company website novellus.solutions. You can email us at support@Novellus.solutions. You can find me on LinkedIn. And you can always subscribe to our newsletters where we bring you the best of the best podcasts and some really thought provoking ideas from the world of human decision making from the world of social psychology of risk. We have a series of events coming up and you can find them all on by visiting our website novellus dot solution Under slash events, we hope that you will join one of our courses sometime and experience the change within. Thank you and goodbye.